The SASS Wild Bunch Forum

Wild Bunch Boards => The Wild Bunch Wire => Topic started by: Allie Mo on November 19, 2014, 09:12:37 AM

Title: Model '12
Post by: Allie Mo on November 19, 2014, 09:12:37 AM
Yeah me!

I've shot my Model '12 SG and am ready to take it to a match. It is very smooth operating.

I've been having troubles with my '97s (of course, Hubby claims operator error ::) ) and hope the '12 may contribute to a smoother match.

Regards,

Allie

PS I hope any of you near the Sacramento area will attend the CA State WBAS match at Diamond Dick's Cowboy Town March 27 - 29, 2015.  :D
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 19, 2014, 09:32:02 AM
I know that as soon as the Model 12 was made legal, I relegated my 97 to backup status and haven't looked back!
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: John Boy on November 20, 2014, 08:00:45 PM
Allie - just rack the forearm hard both ways and your Model 12 will treat you kindly
And don't forget to rack it on the LT and put the safe on ... you know the penalty at the line if you don't  :'(
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 20, 2014, 08:04:41 PM
You do NOT have to put the safety on. And you don't "have" to rack it at the loading table. You just must make sure to show that the hammer is down on an empty chamber before starting the stage.
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Garrison Joe on November 21, 2014, 07:51:38 AM
I find more problems when I run Model 12s really hard.  IMHO, they do best when run smoothly and just firmly.  Don't panic - run one like you are just a firm master of the mechanism.

And just for completeness:
At the loading table with a Model 12, you drop the hammer by pulling the trigger.  All it takes is close action and pull trigger. 

Many folks are hanging a scarf or some other indicator from the trigger guard before they head for the line.    It's a reminder to both the TO and the shooter that the Model 12 has to be checked at the line that the hammer is down.  Take the "M12 indicator" off the gun, show the hammer has already fallen by pulling trigger, stow the indicator in your back pocket or other storage spot.

You knew that already, I would venture!

Good luck with that lovely hunk of steel and walnut!  GJ
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Allie Mo on November 21, 2014, 09:28:20 AM
I have been practicing with it just like it would be used at a match. That includes pulling the trigger before loading. It is the same process as loading the '97 so there is no change there. Just the showing at the line. I never thought about using an indicator/reminder.

It is a beautiful gun, very pristine, unlike our '97s, which look well used.
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 21, 2014, 10:13:54 AM
Allie,
As bad as I hate to say it, there are T/Os who will not help you remember to declare it on the line. I consider it part of my obligation to the shooter to help them. Just like if I see they don't have a magazine in the gun or not enough on their belt. The flag is just a reminder to everybody on the line, T/O and shooter, included.
BD
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Abe E.S. Corpus on November 21, 2014, 02:34:03 PM
I hesitate to guess at a percentage but a good number of Wild Bunch shooters are using the M12s so there is less chance that someone will overlook the staging procedure. 

Some of us even make a little game of it:

"Excuse me, Ms. RO..."

"You rang?"

"I have here a Model 12 shotgun."

"Do tell."

"I'm now pointing it down range and pulling on the trigger (demonstrating)."

"No click, no bang, you are good!"

"Thankee!"

I don't think we have had any shooter earn a stage DQ yet.
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 21, 2014, 03:13:11 PM
Abe, I know of one lady here local who has earned two from the same T/O. I also know of at least one at Winter Range last year. Granted, most T/Os try to help and it is ultimately, the shooter's responsibility but we get in our zone before shooting the stage and it can slip our minds as shooters. Henceforth, the flag!
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Lone Dog on November 21, 2014, 05:34:46 PM
I could never remember to do it. But I always carry a big ole white bar towel around wit me to mop sweat etc. It now goes in the triggerguard at the lt as my "indicator"
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on November 21, 2014, 06:24:35 PM
That is why I use a big red flag, cuz I forget.
Another thing I have stopped doing is pulling the trigger as I close the action.  There is no benefit, the hammer falls normally.  I now close the action and then pull the trigger.  That way I hear the hammer fall and I know it is down.
JFN
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: John Boy on November 21, 2014, 07:01:09 PM
Boggus, your right but old habits are lasting ... I shot pumps from the age of 10 and the safety always went on before loading my Ithaca 37's after pulling the trigger
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Allie Mo on November 22, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
I'm so glad I posted here. I now see the advantage to having a "flag" on the trigger guard. I know several folks who shoot 12s. I don't remember seeing the TO check the trigger lately.

Wow, Boggus! That person should not run the timer! If said TO could remember to give a DQ, s/he should remember to ask the shooter to pull the trigger before the beep, without penalty. >:(
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 22, 2014, 10:45:55 AM
Allie,
As I said, it's ultimately the shooter's responsibility, but if a T/O can help a shooter, they should. This was a really new shooter and quite nervous and that is exactly when I think an T/O really needs to give the shooter as much help as possible.
I have let Wild Bunch shooters start without a magazine in their 1911 and cowboy shooters start without shotgun shells on their body. I always feel bad about it after the fact.
Boggus
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Tully Mars on November 22, 2014, 01:26:39 PM
Allie,

All Model 12 shooters I saw last weekend at GCWB declared their "model 12" and pulled the trigger for the TO. I even shot my Model 12 on a few stages and remembered to pull the trigger for the TO.

Model 12 user's seem to be catching on well to the rule of pulling the trigger for the TO, or at least it seems so to me.

Tully
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Allie Mo on November 22, 2014, 04:34:10 PM
Tully,

I just don't remember...

Seems I'm always getting into position to pick brass or getting ready to shoot.

I know that, if you are my TO, you won't do a "gotcha" like the TO in Boggus' post.

 :D

Allie
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Silvertip on November 22, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
OH Oh Tulley shooting a model 12,as if he was not the fastest
Shotgun around already
See you next time
Silvertip
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Allie Mo on November 23, 2014, 11:52:00 AM
OH Oh Tulley shooting a model 12,as if he was not the fastest
Shotgun around already
See you next time
Silvertip
Tully is an awesome shooter and person!
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Silvertip on November 23, 2014, 12:06:32 PM
That is true
ST
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: John Boy on November 23, 2014, 08:36:06 PM
re: Model 12 ... How often, if any, has your Loading Officer(s) watched & insured that you put internal hammer down before loading and leaving to go to the line?  The next time may be my first!
And I believe this occurs because the majority of the shotguns used for WB are '97's
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 24, 2014, 07:50:22 AM
John Boy, that is all well and good that someone is watching at the LT but the critical part is at the firing line. Declaring it on the line and showing it is what matters.
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Happy Jack on November 24, 2014, 11:04:17 AM
The majority of WBAS matches I attend we don't have a LT Officer.
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Goody on November 24, 2014, 01:49:09 PM
Boggus, your right but old habits are lasting ... I shot pumps from the age of 10 and the safety always went on before loading my Ithaca 37's after pulling the trigger

I may be crazy (it's never been documented!), but I think my model 12's cycle better if I hold the trigger down while closing the action. All 4 of mine are stock, in that no safeties have been removed. So when cycling the action for the first shot on the line you have to remember to have forward pressure on the slidefirst, then the action will cycle. When I hold the trigger while closing the action at the loading table this condition goes away. Am I nuts?
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 24, 2014, 02:35:30 PM
To quote Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory, "I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested." I personally prefer to hold the trigger back as I close the gun. Then, I feel to make sure the action slide is free. 
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on November 24, 2014, 06:22:08 PM
It makes no difference in cycling my M12 whether I hold the trigger down while cycling the action or if I close the action and pull the trigger.  I prefer to close the action and then pull the trigger hearing the hammer drop.  Otherwise I do the OCD thing of repeatedly checking the trigger while standing at the load table to make sure it is really down.
JFN
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: John Boy on November 24, 2014, 06:22:46 PM
Quote
Declaring it on the line and showing it is what matters.
Boggus - I agree 100% ... showing is what does matter
If I may - let's discuss the how between a Model 1897 and Model 12:
This rule book requirements really is applicable to '97's that have an external & visible hammer that can be either placed on the safety setting or hammer down - of course both positions on an empty chamber - that the TO or an astute RO can identify too
Quote
Page 12, Jul 2014 Handbook

RANGE OPERATIONS
• Loaded shotguns must be staged with the muzzle downrange, the action closed,
the chamber empty, and the hammer either on the safety notch or fully down.
(Failure to comply, SDQ

As for the Model 12's, the RO Committee made the decision for assurance that the internal hammer is down accordingly:
Quote
• Shooters using the Model ‘12 shotgun must follow this additional safety
procedure:
Under the direct supervision of the TO/CRO on the firing line they must point the muzzle
in a safe direction and pull the trigger. If the hammer falls, SDQ. Failure to follow this
procedure is a SDQ. It is the shooter’s responsibility to ensure this procedure is followed
before beginning the course of fire

I support a much safer way for discussion by the Committee to determine that the Model 12  internal hammer is down on an empty chamber:
* At the loading table, with an open action, show the LO that the chamber is empty
* Rack the forearm forward
* Set the external (visable) trigger lock to the safe position ... the pin physically blocks the trigger precluding that the firing pin can be put into battery
* Then load the magazine tube
* At the line, the shooter points the muzzle in a downward safe position
* Moves the trigger lock pin off safety to the fire position
* Pulls the trigger
* The TO hears an audible noise of the hammer dropping that is positive proof that that hammer is down

The deficiency with the current procedure is: with a light trigger finger push and a heavy trigger pull ... and no audible sound ... there is no assurance that the Model 12 hammer is down!

Think about it, the model 12 has an external visible trigger lock - and is currently no being used to show and determine with an audible sound that the hammer is down at the line before staging the shotgun and course of fire
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on November 24, 2014, 09:00:14 PM
John Boy,
What we have now is about as simple as it is gonna get.  Why complicate it?
Try racking the slide on a M12 that the trigger hasn't been pulled on.  Mine won't open unless I pull the trigger or hit the slide release button.  There is no deficiency in the current protocol. 
BTW we have a safety on our 1911 we don't use either.
JFN
Title: Re: Model '12
Post by: Tully Mars on November 25, 2014, 07:15:40 AM
Most current consistent model 12 user' s are accustomed to the firing line procedures and for the most part remind the TO that they are shooting a M12. This process took a long time to instill in shooters, TO's and spotters. Heck we are still working on it. It's the main reason I shoot a 97', so I don't have one more thing to think about.

By reversing the procedure to a hammer click being heard from no hammer click being heard will set people up for failure. And as HJ said most WB matches do not have a loading table officer to double check loading of the M12.

Tully

P.S.
Allie and ST, thanks for the kind words.