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Wild Bunch Boards => Wild Bunch Rules Forum => Topic started by: Back 40 on June 03, 2015, 09:52:59 AM

Title: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Back 40 on June 03, 2015, 09:52:59 AM
At a State or higher level match, what if the shooter fails the power factor test before the match starts?  Is he given the option of acquiring new ammo to rerun the test or is he disqualified from the match?   Can't seem to find this situation in the rule book.
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Garrison Joe on June 03, 2015, 10:15:07 AM
Up to the MD, in reality.

The best time to test is before the match, and then to allow shooter to obtain new ammo and retest. 

Testing during match and finding a failure, at big matches, there is usually no recovery allowed.  Shooter gets a MDQ immediately. 

Same with gun weight or gun features.   Much more friendly to spot any of these problems before any stages are shot, and allow shooter to recover if possible.

But, practically speaking, this is not a big problem, because at the last WR WB match, no one failed for power factor problems, from what I heard.  It's a problem that at big-match-level, occurs very rarely anymore.

Good luck, GJ
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Wild Bodie Tom on June 03, 2015, 12:00:35 PM
Two years running. All good.
The word is out and understood.
That's good....
Some really come too close IMO, but if they pass, they pass.
Note to all, as I understand it.
The match chrono is the decider....
I would recommend that add a tenth to your load just in case. Ya ain't gonna notice it if you are runnin 152-153 factor anyway..... Whatever.
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Blackfoot on June 03, 2015, 03:52:23 PM
I wouldn't intentionally run it that close to the edge,  165 or so is comfortable to shoot and leaves a little wiggle room. (I do that after testing 150.7 at a match)

Blackfoot
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Back 40 on June 03, 2015, 05:06:48 PM
Thank you for your reply Gentlemen.  However, GJ indicated it is the MD decision and WBT indicates it is the match chrono operator to decide.   Sooooooooooooooooo, who is right?
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Two Dot on June 03, 2015, 07:01:09 PM
Match director decides when testing is done. The match chronograph
is how testing is done and there is no arguement with the results.
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Garrison Joe on June 03, 2015, 08:46:05 PM
Yep, the chrono TEAM should have their procedure down pat.  Try it out at a monthly WB match to make sure the equipment works, you get velocities that are consistent and agree with other chrono experience, that you understand the light conditions in which the equipment works best (most new ones like full sun on the "screens").   A team is needed, one to record/calculate and one to shoot.  You don't let the individual shooters fire over the chrono unless you want the equipment plugged at least once!!   A couple boxes of good "calibrated velocity" ammo to check that your chrono is not on the fritz each day would be good.  Extra batteries and screens are a necessity.  An extra chrono does not hurt (except in the wallet).

The way that seems to work the best is have shooters come by the chrono bay either before first day starts (long lines), or perhaps in posse rotation through the stages (cuts down the waiting).  They bring their guns (1911 and rifle) and ten rounds of pistol and ten of rifle.   Their guns are shot by the chrono shooter over the equipment with four or five rounds.  Be consistent with pointing muzzle of each gun up (or down, but if you decide to do that, realize it will give lower velocities) before each shot.  Get the average, record it.  Ask shooter for bullet weight, record that.  Calculate PF for rifle and for pistol.   Any failures can be retested immediately with their spare ammo.  Any DQs are informed immediately so they don't shoot rest of match.   Keep good records - not just back of a scrap envelope.

Shooting with common "club" guns can be done, but realize that each gun barrel can be quite a bit different in velocity readings.  And then realize you would need 4 rifles to cover most calibers in WB (38-40, 44-40, 44 spl or mag and 45 Colt).   Better to use the shooter's own rifles and pistols!

The Chrono Team reports to the Match Director only.   Not to posse marshals, not to range safety officer.  This is the MD's match, and he resolves any problems.  Have a kinetic bullet puller ready if it seems that the self-stated weights are not quite right or you have a PF number come in right at the border line where the actual bullet weight could make a difference.   

Hang a target or other disposable object out in the back of the bay for the designated shooter to use as a sighting target.  It is amazing how easy it is to loose focus while shooting hundreds of rounds over a chrono and end up pulling a trigger while muzzle is pointed at the screen stands or the electronics of the unit!   And weight down the stand with a sandbag or two, even if the weather forecast says no wind.  There is ALWAYS wind when you drag out a chronograph.

The first time you do this officially, you probably want to test all shooters.   Big matches have been sampling some of the "potential winners" and "usual on-the-edge suspects" and a random selection of others for power tests.  Maybe they test one or two from each posse.   

Sometimes match officials just collect a baggie of ammo with shooter's name on it and bullet weights.  Shoot it in club guns, and if a problem pops up, they retest with shooter's match guns.

Good luck, GJ
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Happy Jack on June 04, 2015, 09:56:07 AM
IF you chrono before the match and want to allow the shooter to change ammo, you must designate that as a "trial" or whatever you wish to call it. Some matches re-chrono and some do not. Either way you MUST be consistant. If a shooter fails the OFFICIAL chrono test it is a MDQ for Scoring purposes. A maximum accuracy chrono procedure is in the WBAS MD Guide Appendix A. Very few matches have the equipment to do it according to the procedure in the Appendix, but that method would give maximum accuracy. Remember, no matter what the conditions are and WHAT chronograph is used, it is the OFFICIAL chronograph for the match and the results are NOT appealable. Chronos vary some in accuracy so it is to the shooter's benefit to NOT push the lower limit.

As an aside: The distance from the muzzle to the FIRST screen is 10 feet, and the muzzle of the firearm is to remain as LEVEL as possible between shots. The velocities of the three fastest rounds recorded are used to calculate the PF.
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: August West on June 04, 2015, 10:26:28 AM

Some really come too close IMO, but if they pass, they pass.


Tom:

I've heard you say this on several occasions.  Each time you say it, I wonder if the particular shooters you are referencing have been told their loads are down on the floor according to the match chronograph?

I know what my loads do on my chronograph and others that have been available to me.  But, when I hear you make this comment, I always wonder about the results of official chronograph tests.

A.W.  (Who thinks he's running at PF-165)
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Two Dot on June 04, 2015, 10:48:05 AM
As I remember those on the bottom edge were told.
No one failed so no official action was needed.
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Wild Bodie Tom on June 04, 2015, 11:00:20 AM
Any shooter that is running "close" is advised. ALWAYS !!!!!!!!

And Auggie. You worry too much. Just shoot.
You are fine......

As a side note. It is almost always the pistol that runs close.
I will gladly let the shooter shoot their gun over the chrono in these situations so they can see if it's the test gun as well.
Pull 10 at random, shoot five. If issue, contact the shooter and retest with their firearm with them present.
 Pulling/testing before the match essentially proves nothing.... Pull the ammo anytime during the match. Not saying anymore on that....

A chrono availzble on sidematch day BEFORE the main match is surely a good idea. That's done here in front of WinterRange at the Wild Bunch Warmup. I cannot speak for EOT.

As a shooter, I would think given the expense involved to attend either of these matches would warrant seeking out a chrono beforehand. Someone I would feel at a club level should be able to bring a chrono to a monthly to test with.

Interesting as well, three different chronos once at the WR warmup @ Cowtown. They ALL were within 5 fps of each other with the same load. Not saying a chrono can't be off farther on race day, but, 3 different makes, all that close. Most ammo won't be that close!!!!

It's a rule and can be done at the MD's discretion.

And Auggie. There is one person that always runs close on their rifle, and they know. Hopefully, the chrono God stays with em..... Three years goin now...... BUT, passed

I use five round average BTW.

Hope this helps.

Good luck!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Jorge on June 04, 2015, 12:58:50 PM
There may be some inaccuracies  or variations from the prescribed procedure,with the procedures for testing stated above.

It was stated that the muzzle could be pointed up or down, just be consistent.  That is not how it to be done; the muzzle is to always be level.  The tipping is not to be done, at least that is what I was told and may have read.  It tipping the muzzle prior to testing each round is allowed, Please state that as "official."

The testing, as noted in the rules is to be the average of three  of the four fired rounds.  At least two must register to be averaged.

The bullet is to be weighed after being pulled; the shooter's statement of the bullet weight is not acceptable.

One big potential problem is the angle of the bullet path.  If the bullet path is not exactly perpendicular to the both sensors, the distance traveled is farther than the distance between the sensors, and the velocities will be lower than expected.  This may be difficult to achieve without using a laser boresight device to see that the setup is actually true.

Chronography is not as simple as any of us would like!

I, for one would like some of the statements clarified, and corrections made to my statements as necessary.

Thanks
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Garrison Joe on June 04, 2015, 01:13:44 PM
If you want the official, full 500 pounds of instructions for running power factor testing at a really big match, go read the appendix of the WB match director's guide.  I was trying to give the OP a feel for what works in a practical way for a small match. 

Whoo, boy, no good intentions ever go unpunished, huh?  Why don't you fellers just go shoot?    ;D
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Jorge on June 04, 2015, 01:19:08 PM
Well, I have read the procedure for testing the Wild Bunch ammo.  Hence, my statements.

Too much is riding on the power factor to not have it done correctly and be fair to all.

Again, I, for one would like to see optimal consistency.
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Jorge on June 04, 2015, 01:21:10 PM
Addendum:  Without wanting to offend anyone, I would like the moderators or members of the Rules Committee comment about the testing procedure regarding the issues raised.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Boggus Deal on June 04, 2015, 01:50:27 PM
The rules committee has already spoken. It's all in the rule book. I prefer to pull ammo randomly through out the match. Might be first stage. Might be last stage. I was a posse marshal at this year's Winter Range and was tasked with pulling ammo from a list of people, including myself. I handed my bag to Evil Roy to pull my test ammo at his discretion. Somewhere during the match, he asked for my ammo as I went to the loading table. I know my ammo will make power. I could probably back off my loads and be fine. It was good enough to win WR last year. I see no need to change it.
As for consistency in testing, again, it's in the rule books on how to accomplish it.
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Wild Bodie Tom on June 04, 2015, 02:53:57 PM
Back 40
The Match Director does have the final call IF needed......
Usually, not needed.
Nobody is in this to take away I am aware of.
My experience has been that ALL attempts to insure NOT DQing based on anything actually is attempted.
Including the chrono.....

Stuff happens however.
Been there, done that.
Title: Re: Failing the power factor test?
Post by: Back 40 on June 04, 2015, 06:41:33 PM
OK boys, calm down.   In the original post, I simply asked what is the ruling.   Our guy that does the chrono is, without a doubt, more that capable!.   He has the equipment to do the chrono correctly.  Other than, "It is the MD final decision" there is NOTHING in the rule book to handle this specific situation.  I appreciate ALL of your comments, but "some" do not specifically apply to the rule book, ex. ask the shooter his bullet weight, and  "trial" ammo.   None of this is in the rule book.   From what I have gathered, bottom line, it is the MATCH DIRECTOR'S FINAL DECISION.   Need I say more.   Thanks to all for you input!!