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Wild Bunch Boards => The Wild Bunch Wire => Topic started by: Allie Mo on July 13, 2015, 10:01:38 AM

Title: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Allie Mo on July 13, 2015, 10:01:38 AM
Hi Folks,

I took my first shooting class (where you shoot a gun) of any type on Saturday.  It was Fundamental Tactical Handgun and was taught by two people who were and are LE academy instructors.

Many of the techniques were different than those we use in WBAS.
For example, we never "cock and lock (safety on)" at the loading table. That was their first step.
They did not have us unlock the slide before showing clear. They wanted us to pull it back again to make it release.
They kept having us put the safety on, even with no mag in the gun. I'd never used the safety before... :-[

I am curious why WBAS procedures for loading, showing clear, and holstering are different than this.

Three valuable things I learned were proper grip, indexing the mag into the gun, and trigger pull. They had us hold the trigger back after firing rather than immediately releasing it. That seemed to make the subsequent shot more accurate.

About gripping the gun, I learned in a class at the convention to not use the "teacup grip." However, I don't remember there being only one correct grip. Theirs was a bit awkward for me to get the off-hand thumb in position on the lower part of the slide. However, that could be that my muscle memory was stuck in a bad habit.

I hope this makes sense. Any thoughts?

Thanks for any help.

Allie

Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Boggus Deal on July 13, 2015, 10:23:37 AM
Allie,
For one thing, the 1911 was not designed for cocked and locked. The thumb safety was an addition requested by the US Army. Most other shooting sports use the same basic procedure for showing clear; magazine out, gun clear, slide down, hammer down and holster. That is for most shooting sports.
The tactical people do things different. I carry a 1911 most days. It is cocked and locked. Even in WBAS, as I draw, I feel my thumb wipe down the thumb safety. Not muscle memory as much as training. I'll  always argue that muscles have no memory. Disconnect your central nervous system and your muscle will not do anything....
Teacupping is the second worst possible way to use two hands. The first is to grab your strong hand wrist with your weak hand.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "They did not have us unlock the slide before showing clear. They wanted us to pull it back again to make it release."

Also, holding the trigger back for how long? You have to have follow through, of course and the trigger mechanism has to reset but why hold it back?
Boggus
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on July 13, 2015, 12:00:04 PM
Boggus you are correct.  I think that JMB designed the 1911 to be carried with the hammer down on a round in the chamber.  I know folks that carry them that way.

Allie, I also bet they didn't just load 5 rounds in each mag!

Cocked and Locked?  Let the discussion begin.
JFN
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Wild Bodie Tom on July 13, 2015, 12:09:11 PM
Probably not..... LOL

Thing we need to understand is pretty much any venue we go to will have different "rules".
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Boggus Deal on July 13, 2015, 01:32:03 PM
At certain times, other 3gun matches start your pistol hammer down on an empty chamber with NO magazine in the gun. I've also had to clear the gun on the clock and reholster!
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Allie Mo on July 14, 2015, 09:03:49 AM

I don't quite understand what you mean by "They did not have us unlock the slide before showing clear. They wanted us to pull it back again to make it release."

Also, holding the trigger back for how long? You have to have follow through, of course and the trigger mechanism has to reset but why hold it back?
Boggus
In WBAS, I've been told to push the release button (I think that is it's name) to release. They wanted us to pull the slide back a tiny bit and release, which seemed dumb to me when the button did the same thing.

At first we held the trigger back and released slowly. After learning that, it was released almost immediately.
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Happy Jack on July 14, 2015, 09:33:32 AM
Allie, there are two fundamental methods in use to release the slide. The use of the slide lock (what you called a button) and the "slingshot" method you were shown at the class. Law enforcement almost exclusively uses the slingshot method. Competition shooters almost exclusively use the slide lock method. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Slide lock is quicker. Slingshot builds memory for clearing malfunctions. Many other things can be said in support of each method.
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Boggus Deal on July 14, 2015, 09:38:56 AM
Okay. Yes, two different trains of thought. Some say the slide stop is used to lock the slide back and using it to release the slide is hard on it. It is a much faster method than using the sling shot method. If it wears the gun out, my opinion is that there is something wrong.  Others WILL disagree.
The trigger control part is good to learn.
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Allie Mo on July 15, 2015, 10:41:25 AM
Allie, I also bet they didn't just load 5 rounds in each mag!
No, they did not. They had us load 6. Some folk's mags held 10; mine held 8. The reason, IIUC, is to qualify for a CCW, you shoot 6 rounds each at 5, 10, and 15 yard targets.
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: DUSTY BODDAMS on July 16, 2015, 07:53:30 AM
AM, for another different taste of rules go shoot an IDPA match.starting cocked and locked,heavy emphasis on tactical reloads retaining the magazine that still has cartridges and cover. You don't reload in the open and you always shoot from cover. If not done properly to the rules the competitor is penalized by time for not retaining the mag,reloading in the open and not having a good percentage of the body behind cover while shooting and reloading. Oh and I almost forgot "slicing the pie" where from cover when you peek out shoot the first visable target then lean out some more and shoot the next etc. ;D and ya get to tape cardboard targets! I like to shoot several different gun games in addition to WB which is my favorite. I find the different rules and how the games are played as interesting and fun. Dusty Boddams
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Allie Mo on July 16, 2015, 10:08:02 AM
Hi Boggus,

I think I'm at a maximum for following different rules with SASS, WBAS, and W3G.

Regards,

Allie
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Allie Mo on July 16, 2015, 11:05:48 AM
PS That sounds fun, except for the tactical reloads. I fear I would get confused when shooting WB. I like the "slicing the pie" idea, unfortunately, it could lead to safeties by SASS/WBAS rules, if you move your feet instead of just lean.

I bet you would like W3G. It has very few non-safety rules and the safety rules are very similar to SASS, no Procedurals as you shoot targets as you encounter them going around barricades. You either miss or, if you move back unsafely, you get a safety. The first time I shot it, at my home venue, we taped cardboard. At Piru, The Deadwood Boys, you paint metal targets. I wish we did that at SASS matches. I've heard the argument that it would take too many people, which is not totally true as the matches I've attended had one counter and two painters/tapers.

All shooting sports are good and can interest more people in our 2A rights, if they can find one they like. I believe SASS is the most family or previously non-shooting oriented sport and wish it were promoted more.
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Lone Dog on July 26, 2015, 11:10:14 PM
I always use the slingshot method. Always have, much prefer it. Just do. The only time I would ever use the slide release is if my off hand or arm are out of the fight. Then, of course and  by necessity, the slide release would have to be utilized. To each his own YMMV. I do not consider it all that much if any slower as it is accomplished as the gun comes up to the line of sight and the two hand grip re-acquired.

With the level of expertise with the 1911 that many new WBAShooters display, I feel it is a very good thing we never use the safety and never have the pistol cocked and locked. Just too chancy. Makes me shudder to think about and consider...
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Boggus Deal on July 27, 2015, 09:45:32 AM
Dog, The sling shot method is years slower than using the slide stop. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll film and time it to try and show the difference.
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Cayuse Jack on July 27, 2015, 07:13:26 PM
Practical aspects of shooting for self defense are not necessarily the same as techniques used during shooting games.


The slide lock release of the slide is faster and used by shooters in many shooting games.

The sling shot method of releasing the slide is used by many practical/tactical shooters as it is a gross (large) motor skill compared to using the slide lock release.
When under stress, gross motor skills are easier to do than fine motor skills.
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on July 27, 2015, 08:18:48 PM
Practical aspects of shooting for self defense are not necessarily the same as techniques used during shooting games.


The slide lock release of the slide is faster and used by shooters in many shooting games.

The sling shot method of releasing the slide is used by many practical/tactical shooters as it is a gross (large) motor skill compared to using the slide lock release.
When under stress, gross motor skills are easier to do than fine motor skills.

I disagree.  All of shooting is a "gross motor skill."  There are 2 reasons that the slingshot slide release method is taught.  Some shooters lack the strength to de-activate the slide stop and for beginning shooters it is the same action as cocking the pistol.

I don't use the terms gross/fine motor motor skills.  A better way of looking at it is conscious and subconscious skills.  To illustrate, I learned to drive a standard.  For a long time everything I did had to be thought about and planned in advance (conscious skills).  Now after 40 plus years of driving I no longer even think about shifting gears or if I hit a slick spot I instinctively turn the wheel without thinking about it.  Through practice and repetition I have moved all those skills from the conscious to the subconscious.  When I push a mag home my support thumb instinctively hits the slide stop as it returns to its spot (I shoot modern).

What ever technique you use, practice and repetition is necessary to make it a subconscious action.  Because the mind can only think about one thing at a time and I need to be thinking focusing on the front sight aligned on the center of the target.
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: El Mulo Vaquero on July 28, 2015, 04:03:57 AM
"With the level of expertise with the 1911 that many new WBAShooters display, I feel it is a very good thing we never use the safety and never have the pistol cocked and locked. Just too chancy. Makes me shudder to think about and consider..."[/quote]


In other shooting sports, under supervised match conditions, this has never been a problem...............Even in CAS, we have 2 revolvers to draw, cock, shoot, reholster (OMG)..and yet we let first time shooters come out.

I believe it is this mentality that has led to the "dummying down" of the 1911, and other firearms in WB.  I also think it is in part responsible for the declining numbers, slow growth/attracting new shooters, and poor attendance at WB matches. 
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Lone Dog on July 29, 2015, 09:31:55 PM
You may just have a point there Mulo but I have seen some really scary stuff done by newby WB shooters.

HAR! and lol ha ha Travis! Speed and me are not acquainted. Came in next to last at the first TX State only because last place did not show Sunday. Since that initial moment of glory, it's consistently last place over all for me. I' ll stick to slingshotting but thanks for the attempt to school an old dog pard!
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Allie Mo on July 30, 2015, 08:39:17 AM
Hello,

Regarding El Mulo's comment about the lack of growth in WB, I blame the clubs with small, far targets, and complicated scenarios. I'm not just pulling this out of my bonnet. I have heard it from top tier SASS shooters. I was glad to hear that the last two EOT matches have not held with that match model.

Also, the requirement for a .40 or greater caliber rifle has been mentioned as a deterrent to new members.

Regards,

Allie
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: El Mulo Vaquero on July 30, 2015, 09:15:21 AM
Hello,

Regarding El Mulo's comment about the lack of growth in WB, I blame the clubs with small, far targets, and complicated scenarios. I'm not just pulling this out of my bonnet. I have heard it from top tier SASS shooters. I was glad to hear that the last two EOT matches have not held with that match model.

Also, the requirement for a .40 or greater caliber rifle has been mentioned as a deterrent to new members.

Regards,

Allie


+1 :)
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Boggus Deal on July 30, 2015, 09:54:05 AM
Hello,

Regarding El Mulo's comment about the lack of growth in WB, I blame the clubs with small, far targets, and complicated scenarios. I'm not just pulling this out of my bonnet. I have heard it from top tier SASS shooters. I was glad to hear that the last two EOT matches have not held with that match model.

Also, the requirement for a .40 or greater caliber rifle has been mentioned as a deterrent to new members.

Regards,

Allie

Allie,
I sure hope WBAS doesn't go the way of CAS in the respect of big, close targets with spoon fed stages!! CAS is not a shooting match, anymore. It's a speed match. Not to belittle any of these people running sub 10 second stages, but that isn't truly shooting. WBAS, with smaller, further targets and challenging scenarios, tests more than speed.  It tests your accuracy. It tests your gun handling skills. It tests your ability to navigate a stage to your advantage. That is why we don't get much more crossover from SASS. Doesn't have anything to do with a rifle. The same folks who say it's the rifle cost that keeps them from coming over will be the same ones complaining about the number of rounds fired in a WBAS match. If I didn't have an SO who wants me to shoot CAS with, I'd stick to WBAS exclusively.
Boggus
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Wild Bodie Tom on July 30, 2015, 10:18:14 AM
Boggus....
Well, ya certainly nailed some of my similar feelings.
This is a many opinionated subject to be sure...
Shooting of any type is subjective I feel, and the many venues available prove that.
This may not be the cup of tea, so to speak, for some folks.
It is however an option available.
To me, there is no "fix" to draw five thousand shooters into this.
Just my take. Every ones opinion will vary

Volatile subject to be sure.

Keep shootin....LOL
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: El Mulo Vaquero on July 30, 2015, 11:16:52 AM
Well with our club trying to run dedicated monthly WB in the 4 Corners for 4 1/2 years now, as WB is now, we will have to change something or it will end. Trying to draw new shooters, low turnout.  It is too much work setting up a good match (yes it is much more involved than CAS)  month after month for the turnout WE have.,  There has been no support from SASS or WB at all.

I wish I had better club news to report
 
I am sure other clubs are having their own struggles as well.
As it stands now, WB will remain a side match, locally, nationally, world, perhaps.

I just think of what WB could be.....and no I don't have all the answers.

If your clubs can shoot it as is, and everyone loves it, ENJOY IT.

It certainly is a volatile subject to be sure!

Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Wild Bodie Tom on July 30, 2015, 01:05:15 PM
The club I do WB for has about 75 registered shooters for WB.
We get 16-20 when it's sane to shoot, and 12-15 in the wonderful heat of summer.

Not everybody obviously shows up every month.

We have a great time, within the restraints of the particular venue.
Cannot really do downrange, but we can and do have, shall we say, some interesting scenarios. Some 20-25 yard pistol/rifle as well. Along with the infamous "Cowboy on the hill" Which, when weather permits will probably be five of those coming all in. Pistol counts are 25-30 usually, sometimes 35.

We do the best we can with what we have.
Have a set of at least 10 die hard regulars, which to me, is good.

I have elected to finish out the year with shooter option to either use the rifle, or shoot the pistol in place of the rifle at the rifle targets.
Will see how that all goes. That will at least give kind of a snapshot, albeit a small one, of the rifles place at least locally. The 38 inclusion did nothing to grow the shooters at all. Those that tried WB with their 38, just returned with a big bore rifle..... That again, is here. Hear that works in other places, although for the local, if allowed is fine I suppose. But does nothing IF any of those folks wish to attend other matches outside of that, or a sanctioned match. Also hear of clubs NOT using the rifle as well. Varies....

Also, offering the revolver (1917) in lieu of the 1911 to see if any interest in that, as some of the Caboy shooters have stated they would do that and shoot Wild Bunch then.

Just cannot wrap themselves around shooting a 1911 in SASS. Again, everyone is different.....

Thanks

Bodie
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: DUSTY BODDAMS on July 30, 2015, 07:38:32 PM
BD and WBT, I'm with y'all on this and all I shoot now is wild bunch. I really enjoy the challenges of the game as played now. We don't have large monthlies but those that do attend are very enthusiastic about wild bunch and they all enjoy the game as played. We have a standing open invitation to all to shoot any sass legal rifle any 1911 and any pump shotgun shooting open class and not competing as score is not kept. No takers to speak of. As far as the droves of masses shooting it do we really need to worry about that? As long as we get enough new shooters to sustain it and we are all having a great time. Leading the horse to water comes to mind........people that don't really want to shoot the game will always find an excuse. WBT I bet the 1917's are rowdier than what's expected with the loads we shoot.  One more thought.......Sass was not an overnight sensation like a lot of folks think it was. In 1991 I joined and got the badge number 1907. Grif looked at my new badge I so proudly wore and said"my god Dusty there's gonna be 2000 people in sass before you know it!" His badge number is 93!  Maybe WB growth is still in the future. Dusty Boddams
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Allie Mo on July 30, 2015, 08:14:39 PM
WB Tom,

You've seen our set up. How do you feel it compares with others? I feel our targets are hittable, even if I don't, for even me.

El Mulo,

In my area, we have a dedicated WBAS club and I think attendance is pretty good. The "problem" is that we have many other matches to compete with, CAS, IDPA.... Yes, this is California!  ;)

Regards,

Allie
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Wild Bodie Tom on July 31, 2015, 10:35:07 AM
Allie, you guys do well there.
I kinda like the last stage you folks do, if you are still doin that...
Title: Re: 1917 Revolvers
Post by: Grouchy Spike on July 31, 2015, 01:45:58 PM
"I bet the 1917's are rowdier than what's expected with the loads we shoot." Dusty Boddams

I can attest that the 1917 loaded with the same 45 acp load as my 1911  (4.3 gr Trail Boss and a 230 gr bullet, PF = 161), is way more rowdy than the 1911!

I  backed off to 3.5 gr TB and a 230 gr bullet for the 1917.  While that is manageable,  I'd load lighter bullets for the 1917 if I had some handy.  But shooting the 1917 is a hoot!
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: DUSTY BODDAMS on July 31, 2015, 02:03:05 PM
GS, 17's are lots of fun! I've got a smith and a couple of Colts. Capt. Jarrett was talking about how versatile the 45acp is and that a CAS/WB competitor could just use a 45acp out of rifle ,1911 and Saa and compete in both disaplines. Well I have uberti with a 45acp cylinder and he has a pair of Rugers convertibles . We decided to shoot a cowboy stage for fun with them as an experiment. Found out really quick that while using the same cartridge makes sense using the same load does not! Them pistols was rowdy! Fun test though.....hey that's a neat BAMM bench that got made,should work well for all involved.   Dusty Boddams
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Wild Bodie Tom on July 31, 2015, 02:34:12 PM
Rowdy is good.
They ain't 29's though.....

Makes ya respect a 1911 a bit however using the same loads.....
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Cowboy44 on July 31, 2015, 05:23:03 PM
El Mulo & I have been putting on Cowboy & WB matches here for quite a few years.We started off with about a dozen people in WB but gradually fell off to where there is not enough people to put on a good match.I don't really know why we can't get people interested in it.
  We had a couple of IPSIC guys shoot for a while but haven't seen them for a while..Don't have a clue why they quite on us..
  At our range we can't leave our steel out,so it is quite a bit of work to bring steel out , pic up brass     count , score with just 5or 6 people..Most of us aint Spring Chickens. After all the work it seems to just take all the fun out of it..
                                                                   Largo
Title: Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
Post by: Allie Mo on August 01, 2015, 03:38:06 PM
Allie, you guys do well there.
I kinda like the last stage you folks do, if you are still doin that...
Yep! The optional sixth stage is a shooter favorite. Very few people leave.