The SASS Wild Bunch Forum

Wild Bunch Boards => Reloading for Wild Bunch => Topic started by: El Muerto Negro on November 05, 2015, 07:29:29 AM

Title: Recipe information please
Post by: El Muerto Negro on November 05, 2015, 07:29:29 AM
Hello,

At the point in wild  bunch to start to reload. I'm loading on a Dillon 550. Looking for a recipe for 45acp. I'm have large Federal primers, Clays,Clay Dot,Trail Boss. I will be getting Dillon 45acp die set and I'm looking at Badman Bullets 185g head they make for wild bunch. I would prefer a recipe using Clay Dot being in have it and would like to save the clays for my shotgun shells.

EMN
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 05, 2015, 08:24:43 AM
Personally, I like the 230 grain bullet around 725 fps, or slightly over. Much less muzzle snap and faster splits. I don't have my load data handy and don't try to remember it, any more. I would also look at Redding dies. While Dillon makes great products, I like Redding dies better, personally.
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: DUSTY BODDAMS on November 05, 2015, 09:31:12 AM
😀 well said BD, lm a big fan of the 230 that mimics the fmj. At the same speed. Can't help on the powder either because I use WST. Looks like ya'll had a big time down in the bayou! Dusty Boddams
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 05, 2015, 09:43:03 AM
We had A time...... It was a lot of fun but very, very wet..... I haven't been that wet since I left Georgia 17 years ago. Nellie and Possum put on a great match. I wish the weather had been better for them. And of course, one of my best stages had to be tossed out due to the weather. 
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: El Muerto Negro on November 05, 2015, 10:11:08 AM
😀 well said BD, lm a big fan of the 230 that mimics the fmj. At the same speed. Can't help on the powder either because I use WST. Looks like ya'll had a big time down in the bayou! Dusty Boddams


Will the redding dies work without being modified?  Why do you prefer them over dillion? Lastly i though less lead lower flip?

EMN
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 05, 2015, 10:23:41 AM
The Redding dies work without any modifications at all. The Dillon dies have a HUGE radius at the bottom to help guide in the brass. That can lead to not sizing the case completely. The Redding dies size the case more fully. There are other reasons but that is the biggest one.
As to less muzzle flip with the heavier bullet, remember velocity plays a key factor. For a 185 grain bullet to make the same power factor that I use with the 230s, the bullet has to be going around 890 fps compare to 725.  It makes a big difference. Not like in cowboy where power factor is no consequence.  I used a 200 grain for years until J Frank Norfleet enlightened me.

Side note. I do use the Dillon small size nuts on the Redding dies. Just for room around the dies.
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: marshal stone on November 05, 2015, 01:43:51 PM

I too prefer the 230 gr. pill. After all it's the bullet the gun was designed around.
Don't have a Clay Dot recipe but 3.5 of Clays with the 230 gr works nicely for me.
Never have to worry about power factor weather at sea level and 60 degrees or
7000 ft. and 95 degrees.

Marshal Stone
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on November 05, 2015, 06:23:00 PM
El Muerto, look real hard at the Trail Boss.  It is slower burning than the Clays and Clay Dot.  It is slightly slower than Winchester WST, which is a great powder with the 230 gr bullet.  Slower burning powders and the 230 will give you less felt recoil.  And to quote Jerry Miculek, "If your gun ain't on the target, you ain't winnin'."

Find a Chronograph.  Someone else's load may work for them but be entirely different in your pistol.  Not chronographing your pistol load is a recipe for a MDQ.

I won't try TB in my pistol until I am out of WST.  But, 3.6 gr Trail Boss, Federal LP & 225 hard cast bullet gives me 163 PF out of my 17.5 inch 45 ACP rifle.  I suspect that 3.8 to 4.0 gr and a 230 gr bullet will give about the same PF.  But you better chronograph it.
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Garrison Joe on November 05, 2015, 10:02:00 PM
I know of no one running 185 grain slugs in WB for .45 Auto.   The gun is just not all that easily tuned to do a 185 at 900 FPS (to get you 166 PF).

Muzzle flip is almost all in how you control the gun, given the same power factor.  A faster slug does clear the barrel faster, though.

So based on that and lots of experience shooting a 200 grain bullet from 1911, that's what I shoot in WB.   Clays and Clay Dot are very close to giving same velocity and pressure.   I like about 4.2 Clay Dot to give a 170 PF in my gun, but not as much as I like WST.

Trail Boss - don't like paying extra for all that air to bulk it up.  Besides, very hard to find right now.

Good luck, GJ
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: El Muerto Negro on November 06, 2015, 04:04:45 AM
Thanks for the advice.  Where do you get your heads from? I want to get a few different weights and try them out. I like Badman Bullets products he has 185 and 230. Joe you said you use 200 where do you get them?

EMM
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Boggus Deal on November 06, 2015, 05:24:31 AM
Www.twobitsbullets.com is where I get mine. I have used Badman. Great bullets and great people.
Twobits are good enough to win 3 NM state overall championships, the Western Territorial championship, WR overall national championship and 2nd overall at EOT. Might just be something to them and 230 grain bullets...
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Garrison Joe on November 06, 2015, 06:21:42 AM
I cast my own bullets, so I can pick from several 200 grain designs.  (I  never put a "head" into a cartridge case in my life.... :o)

But I'll bet Badman has a 200 gr RNFP at least.   Makes a great load with both 45 auto and 45 Colt. 

Good luck, GJ


PS - I checked for you.  Yep, BB has the 200 RNFP either cast lubed or poly coated    That design usually has a crimp groove, but that does not mean you have to use it.  I find if I seat a 200 grain RNFP in 45 auto just about so the mouth reaches the beginning curve of the ogive nose, and then taper crimp, I get a great feeding round.


PPS - looked in several gun reference books.  The term "HEAD" is often defined as the solid end of a cartridge case which contains the primer.  The HEADSTAMP is the cartridge designation and sometimes manufacturer and sometimes mfg year information stamped into the head of a cartridge case.   The slangy attempt to use head to refer to a bullet in a cartridge case is just really wrong because it is already taken for a different meaning.   Just MHO.   

This is ammunition loading, folks, not assembling Mr. Potato Head.   ;D
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Two Dot on November 06, 2015, 11:36:22 AM
Hey Boggus, I'm pretty sure the guy
pulling the trigger had more to with
Your wins than which bullets you use.
I do agree that the 230 is a great choice
and is what I use for bigger matches.
Two Dot
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Happy Jack on November 06, 2015, 12:22:38 PM
I know of only ONE person shooting Wild Bunch that uses a 185 grain bullet. The reason?? Hundreds of already loaded rounds left over from their USPSA days. With that light bullet and the high velocity required to meet USPSA PF they are not very happy with their performance in Wild Bunch. 230 is by far the most popular weight followed by 200. The "felt recoil" nicer with the heavy bullet. I can't help with load information since I have only used a 230 grain bullet and WST in 45ACP for MANY years.
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Kid McClintock on December 15, 2015, 07:05:42 PM
Hello, I'm new to this forum and going to be new to wild bunch shooting soon. I've been shooting cowboy
action shooting for a year. I want to try my hands at Wild Bunch.
I have two 8 pound jugs of Red Dot and about ten 1 pound bottles of Trail Boss.
I'm looking for a recipe for 45 ACP that I can use with the two Powders I have.
Thanks
and sorry if this is posted somewhere else.
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Boggus Deal on December 15, 2015, 07:20:11 PM
Hello, I'm new to this forum and going to be new to wild bunch shooting soon. I've been shooting cowboy
action shooting for a year. I want to try my hands at Wild Bunch.
I have two 8 pound jugs of Red Dot and about ten 1 pound bottles of Trail Boss.
I'm looking for a recipe for 45 ACP that I can use with the two Powders I have.
Thanks
and sorry if this is posted somewhere else.

Kid,
Just so you know, they aren't one pound bottles of Trail Boss. They are 9 ounce bottles. There are others who have used Trail Boss for 45 Auto loads. I have no idea, though.
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on December 15, 2015, 08:55:21 PM
I shoot Red Dot and/or Promo for practice and local matches.  230 grain bullet, 3.8 gr Promo or RD and a small primer case will give me a PF of 159.  Large primer cases will give a bit more fps to bump the PF up to 162.  Your pistol might give you something different so chronograph your loads.  Start at 3.6 to 3.8 until you find the load for your pistol.  As I stated above my best guess on TB is 4.0 grains behind a 230 gr bullet.
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Garrison Joe on December 16, 2015, 07:35:56 AM
Well, what bullet weight are you going to shoot in .45 Auto?   You gotta give us that if you want safe loading data.

If you follow many of the other shooters, a 230 grain bullet at 160 Power Factor (PF) should be your aim.   That would be 695 Feet Per Second (FPS).   Red Dot at about 3.7 - Whoa, more like about 4.3 grains - according to Lyman -  would get you close to that.  Any good reloading manual should show that load and it's velocity.   

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A RELOADING MANUAL yet, get one!!    I'd recommend the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for a great resource for loading for Wild Bunch and Cowboy, too.

Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Kid McClintock on December 16, 2015, 04:26:14 PM
I have on hand160 and 200 grain projectile. (Round nose and cast lead.) Not sure if a specific size is needed to shoot wild bunch
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Boggus Deal on December 16, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
I have on hand160 and 200 grain projectile. (Round nose and cast lead.) Not sure if a specific size is needed to shoot wild bunch

Per the Wild Bunch Action Shooting Handbook.

• Pistol and rifle ammunition must have a minimum bullet weight of 180gr (11.66
grams).
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Garrison Joe on December 16, 2015, 04:42:59 PM
Minimum weight bullets for Wild Bunch is 180 grain, by rule.  Kinda hard to make power factor with them, however.   Practical limits for 1911 bullets are from 200 to 230 grains, and usually either a round nose, RNFP, or truncated cone nose.  Semi-wadcutters will work but not many folks use them because extra attention must be paid to throating and polishing.

With what you have on hand, use the 200 grain RN or RNFP.  Either will be fine.   That will need a little more powder than the 230 grain loads you have received so far.  Lyman suggests about 4.6 to 4.7 grains Red Dot to make 800 FPS (PF 160).
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on December 16, 2015, 09:39:50 PM
Kid,
The 160 gr are not legal for WBAS, so burn them up in practice.  Who cares how they are loaded.
The 200 gr are legal and when I shot them in my pistol (past tense), I loaded 200 gr RNFP bullets with 4.5 gr Red Dot to get 806 fps for a 161 PF (Win large Mag primer at 1.185 COL) out of my pistol.
If your 200 grain bullets are round nose flat points you might save them for you rifle.  I can't feel any difference between 200 gr and 230 gr bullets loaded to 160+ PF in my rifle.  But for a reason I can't explain I like the 200 gr RNFP better.
Future pistol bullet purchases should be 230 gr bullets.  I shoot 230 grain bullets over Red Dot for practice and local matches because it is cheap and I like to shoot a lot.  For major matches work up loads using the Trail Boss (or WST) because it is a slower burning powder.   TB is the powder I use in my rifle.
I respectfully disagree with GJ, I consider printed hand-load books absolutely worthless.  Your best load data is what you develop using your own chronograph.  Find a starting load here or Handloads.com and chronograph it! 
JFN
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Garrison Joe on December 16, 2015, 09:43:36 PM
I never trust loading data for semi-auto pistols to come out at the velocity that the manual shows, either.  I always chronograph.  But, the loading manuals sure get you to a good safe starting point, and the chrono will take you the rest of the way! 

GJ
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on December 16, 2015, 09:55:43 PM
I never trust loading data for semi-auto pistols to come out at the velocity that the manual shows, either.  I always chronograph.  But, the loading manuals sure get you to a good safe starting point, and the chrono will take you the rest of the way! 

GJ

Joe,
That is true, no offense intended!  We are both using the chronograph to get to our goal.  I personally will no longer will buy a manual for a starting point when that information is free on the internet.  That $ is better spent on a chronograph.
JFN
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Garrison Joe on December 16, 2015, 10:55:33 PM
Well, most of the commercial loading manuals are assembled by technicians and ballisticians with years of experience, and "insider" information about the makeup of the powders and other components.  I sure trust them more than I do Joe Reloader's pet load on a free web site.   But, I also know what makes sense and what pressure signs look like.   I put ALL that data together as best I can  and have never blown up a gun.   

So for a beginning reloader (perhaps just beginning on this one particular chambering, in fact) I still recommend a study of the commercial loading manuals before starting to assemble rounds.   And, when talking cast bullet loads, the only manual with a good number of those is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

So, if you don't mind, I'll just keep recommending pards at least look Lyman over before they start.  ;D 8)

Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on December 17, 2015, 08:45:33 AM
Sadly Joe I have blown a pistol up.  I did it by using the "most accurate" load out of a printed Nosler load manual for the Nosler bullets I was loading.  A small case (40 S&W) with a bulky powder, so it wasn't a double charge.  It was a Glock, so a new mag and mag release and we were good to go again.

We all have different experiences which shape our recommendations.  This is why I believe a chronograph is more important.  Few people will spend the $100 for an inexpensive chronograph.  We get lazy and use someone else's data whether it is published in a manual by a reputable company or from "Joe Reloader."  My laziness that day taught me a lesson.

So you recommend a load manual and I will recommend a chronograph and maybe we will get new reloaders to buy both!
JFN
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Tully Mars on December 17, 2015, 09:05:07 AM
Buy both and don't look back. The manual's give more information then just load data and the chronograph's tell the absolute truth! JFN's correct load data can be found online from the powder maker, but there is interesting things elsewhere in the manuals, such as the history of the cartridge or being able to compare different cartridges performances.

Most top shooters have moved to 230 grains for the reasons mentioned by Boggus and others.

JFN,

I'm curious as to why your "practice" rounds are different powder than your big match rounds. Is it simply powder availability or something else? 

Tully
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Texas Bart on December 17, 2015, 10:05:44 AM
Buy both and don't look back. The manual's give more information then just load data and the chronograph's tell the absolute truth! JFN's correct load data can be found online from the powder maker, but there is interesting things elsewhere in the manuals, such as the history of the cartridge or being able to compare different cartridges performances.

Most top shooters have moved to 230 grains for the reasons mentioned by Boggus and others.

JFN,

I'm curious as to why your "practice" rounds are different powder than your big match rounds. Is it simply powder availability or something else? 

Tully
+1 on buy both, especially if new to reloading. There is a lot more reloading information in most manuals than load data.
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on December 17, 2015, 10:51:02 AM

JFN,

I'm curious as to why your "practice" rounds are different powder than your big match rounds. Is it simply powder availability or something else? 

Tully

Cost, RD and now Promo are cheaper. 
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Tully Mars on December 17, 2015, 11:19:45 AM
"Cost, RD and now Promo are cheaper."


Got it. Was just wondering :)
Title: Re: Recipe information please
Post by: Garrison Joe on December 17, 2015, 02:05:36 PM
Quote
correct load data can be found online from the powder maker

Well, there's at least one rub about trying to find data on-line anymore from Alliant, the manufacturer of Red Dot.  If you go to their current published data, all you find is the MAX load and velocity for the bullet weight and powder type.  They stopped publishing a range of loads that work well several years ago!  Made their data much less useful for light loading!

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=230&shellid=35&bulletid=63

BUT, if you go to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, for a 230 grain RN slug and Red Dot, you get what Lyman considers to be the full useful range of loads from minimum to maximum, from whence you can then get a good estimate of the load to make any particular Power Factor you want.

But, anybody shooting a WB match at the state or higher level had better run their loads over a chrono before going to the match, to ensure you "make" power factor!   Remember what happens when some powders get cold, too!



 
Title: Trail Boss Recipe
Post by: Grouchy Spike on December 19, 2015, 06:11:15 PM
4.3 Grains Trail Boss, 230 gr LRN, Federal LP Primers, various cases,= 700 fps, PF 161 as chrono'd by CVV at 2014 State WB Match.