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Wild Bunch Boards => The Wild Bunch Wire => Topic started by: Back 40 on May 03, 2017, 11:24:00 AM

Title: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Back 40 on May 03, 2017, 11:24:00 AM
What would YOU suggest to get more folks interested in shooting Wild Bunch?
PLEASE DO NOT START A PRAIRIE FIRE!!!
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Blaze Kinkaid 253 on May 03, 2017, 03:22:24 PM
Maybe 7 rounds in the mag's & 5 shotgun in lieu of 6 as the norm.  Just saying.   :)    We already had our Prairie Fire here in Cochise County, Arizona, 48,000 acres worth, don't need anymore.  Respectfully
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Kid Rich on May 03, 2017, 06:30:24 PM
Make it interesting, let em shoot BP in their guns.
 ;D
kR
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Boggus Deal on May 03, 2017, 07:15:10 PM
Make it interesting, let em shoot BP in their guns.
 ;D
kR

You can shoot BP in your Wild Bunch guns!
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Lone Dog on May 03, 2017, 09:39:25 PM
Maybe 7 rounds in the mag's & 5 shotgun in lieu of 6 as the norm.  Just saying.   :)    We already had our Prairie Fire here in Cochise County, Arizona, 48,000 acres worth, don't need anymore.  Respectfully

Bingo, 7 and 5 should have been the norms from the get go, how we got saddled with 5 and 6 is still the great mystery...
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Nawlins Kid on May 04, 2017, 04:24:33 AM
What would YOU suggest to get more folks interested in shooting Wild Bunch?
PLEASE DO NOT START A PRAIRIE FIRE!!!

Does your club have time before or after have time to let folks shoot some WB stages?

Nawlins
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Kid Rich on May 04, 2017, 08:56:05 AM
Make it interesting, let em shoot BP in their guns.
 ;D
kR

You can shoot BP in your Wild Bunch guns!
I do.
kR
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Back 40 on May 04, 2017, 10:43:43 AM
Nawlins Kid, our SASS club shoots the second Saturday of the month.   Usually, I will hold a three stage WB match after the regular shoot.   And usually its the same folks, BUT, at least the interest is still there.

     I doubt that this will ever happen, but one thing "might" be that they can't shoot .38 cal.    I try to ask folks what keeps them from shooting WB, and that is one thing I hear.   Also, the power factor.   I know, I know, it's no big deal, but it seem like it's just another "rule" that they have to abide by.   
Also, I think the fact they some of them "tried" WB earlier on and had a bad experience.   They bought a cheap 1911, cheap mags, and cheap ammo and had severe gun problems.   Those are the ones that really need some coaching, in a nice way.   
   It just seems to me that our WB sport has become stagnant.   I wish be could get more support all around.   Example:  You see a lot of WB threads on the SASS cowboy forum.   Why not have a sub forum (if that's what it's called) link like the saloon, classified and SASS team and mounted shooting links.    People say, "Well, it's NOT Cowboy"    When you think about it, it's more period correct than B Western.   And also don't forget, WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.   WHY NOT SUPORT EACH OTHERS SHOOTING SPORTS?   
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: DUSTY BODDAMS on May 04, 2017, 12:29:41 PM
One thought is getting more clubs to agree to monthly matches and having it as a real WB match. It's difficult to get folks to fork over money for equipment etc. and only have a 5th  Saturday match or twice yearly etc. It could be a simple thing to drag in a set of WB distance rifle targets and use the cowboy rifle targets as WB pistol and use the same shotgun targets. Let the Cowboys shoot the stage and then let the WB loose. With five or more let them posse together and have a match! There are shooters who will WB that are not shooting cowboy now. Getting across to the clubs that this will draw shooters they would not ordinarily get means additional free income just for setting up a few more targets that are already laying around but cowboy shooters aren't using. As far as power factors, 38 rifles and everything else that is used as an excuse is just that. At our home club we have an open class allowing ANY 1911 any pump shotgun and any sass legal main match rifle.........very very rarely used. Back 40,if your having monthly matches give them an open class shoot the 38 rifles,tell all to not worry about power factors at your local monthly shoot. A preacher told me you got to get them to the church before you can baptize them. I think he had a point.  Dusty Boddams
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Nawlins Kid on May 04, 2017, 12:52:13 PM
One thought is getting more clubs to agree to monthly matches and having it as a real WB match. It's difficult to get folks to fork over money for equipment etc. and only have a 5th  Saturday match or twice yearly etc. It could be a simple thing to drag in a set of WB distance rifle targets and use the cowboy rifle targets as WB pistol and use the same shotgun targets. Let the Cowboys shoot the stage and then let the WB loose. With five or more let them posse together and have a match! There are shooters who will WB that are not shooting cowboy now. Getting across to the clubs that this will draw shooters they would not ordinarily get means additional free income just for setting up a few more targets that are already laying around but cowboy shooters aren't using. As far as power factors, 38 rifles and everything else that is used as an excuse is just that. At our home club we have an open class allowing ANY 1911 any pump shotgun and any sass legal main match rifle.........very very rarely used. Back 40,if your having monthly matches give them an open class shoot the 38 rifles,tell all to not worry about power factors at your local monthly shoot. A preacher told me you got to get them to the church before you can baptize them. I think he had a point.  Dusty Boddams


+1
We shoot the fourth Sunday of the month and allow shooters to shoot WB on the cowboy stages. It has stir interest in WB and also having folks join SASS. There is nothing wrong having a separate class for 38 cal rifles, we call it Rough Rider. That is a term we use when we teach WB RO and now there are a few clubs using it to try entice folks to come try it. As DB stated you got to get them to come first and then convert them into WB shooters.

This year at the The Nor-easter Regional we are putting on a WB mini match and it will have a Rough Rider class. It is a open class to shoot either Traditional or Modern with a legal 1911 and SG and a legal SASS 38 cal rifle. There will be only one class for men shooters and women shooters.

Nawlins

Nawlins
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: lostvaquero on May 04, 2017, 02:19:21 PM
I know buying more equipment for me put it off.  I also know the caliber question has been hashed over.  Local club allows most anything as long as SASS legal round.  Shooting the Thompson (semi) made it good for me while I get the scratch for 40+ lever.  Yes could use the 38.

7+5 is fine but not sure drag more people in.  Personally I think loosening up to other firearms might help but that is just me.  Love to see lugers and broomhandles and 1917 revolvers.  And yes other than a Sansei broomhandle and 1917 they are sub 45s. 

I agree we need to support each other. 

I did like the idea of a sub forum on the main SASS wire.  Might get a few more folks talking and interested.
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Angryned on May 05, 2017, 08:48:38 AM
The local SASS club needs to have regular monthly matches. Having a core group of regular, enthusiasts Wildbunch shooters that go out their way to sell this activity to other shooters is very important.  It needs to be fun and important for others observing the Wildbunch game to see the participants having fun will do a lot to create interest...having a group of extremely serious shooters that take things way to serious may not be to inviting.

Angry Ned
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Tully Mars on May 05, 2017, 06:54:35 PM
If we're looking to grow interest is WB I think we need to find away to draw shooters from outside of Cowboy. I have some thoughts and they all go against the mind set of what WB was intended to be.

1. Change from 5 to 7 round magazines. We'll never go locked and cocked, but we can increase the rounds closer to other sports were the 1911 is shot.

2. Add one category, "The Pistolero". Pistol and shotgun only. None of our targets are out of pistol range, besides WB is suppose to be challenging. Most shooters of IDPA or USPSA have a 1911 and shotguns are more or less reasonable compared to a match rifle. Rifle round count would need to be adjusted appropriately.

3. Consider smaller frame 1911's (Springfield EMP) chambered for 9mm, after all the 9mm has been around since 1902. This may open it up to people with smaller hands that have avoided WB because of the 1911. Yep this might mean another category (Wild Bunch Lite?) and shouldn't be an issue with knock downs.

4. Drop the power factor requirement, make it clear that the targets must go down, shooter lives with the results.

I'm sure there's more, but that's all for now.

Tully




Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Back 40 on May 06, 2017, 07:44:01 PM
Good points TM.   
Locked and cocked? 
Let's see:
  I shoot USPSA and we start locked and cocked.
I shoot IDPA and we start locked and cocked
I shoot 3 gun and we start locked and cocked
I shoot Action pistol and we start locked and cocked
I shoot Steel Challenge and we start locked and cocked
HELP ME UNDERSTAND
and besides, more women might shoot if we would start locked and cocked.
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Dantankerous on May 06, 2017, 08:44:03 PM
I know buying more equipment for me put it off.  I also know the caliber question has been hashed over.  Local club allows most anything as long as SASS legal round.  Shooting the Thompson (semi) made it good for me while I get the scratch for 40+ lever.  Yes could use the 38.

7+5 is fine but not sure drag more people in.  Personally I think loosening up to other firearms might help but that is just me.  Love to see lugers and broomhandles and 1917 revolvers.  And yes other than a Sansei broomhandle and 1917 they are sub 45s. 

I agree we need to support each other. 

I did like the idea of a sub forum on the main SASS wire.  Might get a few more folks talking and interested.

Heck, I thought buying more equipment was part of the fun! :)

Lots of good ideas here.  Personally,  I just need more TIME!
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Tully Mars on May 06, 2017, 10:47:20 PM
Good points TM.   
Locked and cocked? 
Let's see:
  I shoot USPSA and we start locked and cocked.
I shoot IDPA and we start locked and cocked
I shoot 3 gun and we start locked and cocked
I shoot Action pistol and we start locked and cocked
I shoot Steel Challenge and we start locked and cocked
HELP ME UNDERSTAND
and besides, more women might shoot if we would start locked and cocked.
Back 40,

Just being clear,  I wasn't recommending locked and cocked.

Tully
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Back 40 on May 08, 2017, 07:13:53 AM
No problem Tully, the bold wasn't directed at your comment and sorry for the caps, just trying to make a point.
Thanks for the comments.
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Tully Mars on May 09, 2017, 06:40:10 AM
Back 40,

I didn't notice the "bold", just wanted to be clear that I wasn't suggesting "locked & cocked", that's all. As usual I could have found a better way to state it.

Tully
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Grouchy Spike on May 09, 2017, 02:18:22 PM
What would YOU suggest to get more folks interested in shooting Wild Bunch?
PLEASE DO NOT START A PRAIRIE FIRE!!!

Great question, and I motion that we make efforts to address it by understanding what drives or doesn't drive the cowboy shooters into WBAS. WBAS is not offering enough Value.

Every decision we make is guided by Value.

The Benefit minus the Cost is the Value.

More thoughts later after a visit to the gunsmith to remove the slide aperture screw on the 03A3 that I broke attempting to swap to a smaller aperture. 
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Back 40 on May 11, 2017, 08:04:00 AM
What would YOU suggest to get more folks interested in shooting Wild Bunch?
PLEASE DO NOT START A PRAIRIE FIRE!!!

Great question, and I motion that we make efforts to address it by understanding what drives or doesn't drive the cowboy shooters into WBAS. WBAS is not offering enough Value.

Every decision we make is guided by Value.

The Benefit minus the Cost is the Value.

More thoughts later after a visit to the gunsmith to remove the slide aperture screw on the 03A3 that I broke attempting to swap to a smaller aperture.

I sooooooo agree with you GS
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Buffalo Dick WB on June 06, 2017, 10:41:03 AM
I think we just need to have regular matches and work harder to promote the sport.  I think the rules are fine and shouldn't be easily changed without compelling evidence that a rule change would have a significant change in participation without overly diluting the game.

I've heard the complaint about not loading seven in the magazine, but I seriously doubt that changing that would result in a significant increase in participants.  Same thing with the power factor, present legal loads are not what I would call stout and I would hate to see the race to the bottom that we've seen in CAS loads over the years.

Most all WBAS shooters come from CAS and we often use target arrays set up for cowboy action, with stages written by people who write CAS stages.  Five in a mag works well.  Non-WBAS sports utilizing the 1911 usually permit tactical reloads as well-do we want to go there?  One of the interesting things about CAS and, to a lessor degree, WBAS, is that for many shooters, this is their first shooting sport and they are not really "gun people."  I would bet we would see a lot more penalties, both procedural and safety, if we went to seven rounds.

We had a WB side match at the Ohio State match two weeks ago and had two full posses and everyone had a blast.  Another shooter and I were even talking about how it is a bit more challenging to shoot a big bore rifle than a .38 and how we liked that.  I suspect that there are a lot of big bore rifles sitting around that could be bought since a lot of shooters started with .45's and later went to the more competitive .38.  In any event, assembling the equipment for WBAS is a lot cheaper than say, Classic Cowboy.

WB isn't for everyone but I think a lot of shooters would like it if they tried it.  I personally would prefer a smaller match with like minded shooters, than a larger watered down "WB Lite" shooting "whatever," but that's just me.

Back 40, I had really hoped to make the Illinois state match at Sparta, but a local club was having a WB match that same weekend and I wanted to support the local club. Sorry, I missed it.
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Kid Rich on June 06, 2017, 01:49:53 PM
Yep
kR
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Sgt Eli on June 11, 2017, 11:22:31 AM
I would take the rifle completely out and focus on the 1911 and shotgun, then the mags could be loaded to capacity. I am not seeing any growth in Wild Bunch in our area, it is stagnant at best, if something isn't working, time to try something different.
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Allie Mo on June 12, 2017, 11:51:48 AM
Hi 40!

If I were "calling the shots" (pun intended) and wanted to grow WBAS, I would have a category where a semi-auto pistol was allowed at SASS matches.  :o Basically, it would be SASS with a semi-auto pistol. You could be flexible about the rifle caliber too. (Don't tell HJ that I wrote this. ;) )

We have a dedicated WBAS club at my home venue. There are several WBAS shooters who never shoot SASS and one who sold his SASS guns and only shoots WBAS, IDPA...

If this category brought in sufficient new shooters, maybe some day, you could have a dedicated by-the-rules WBAS club.

Regards,

AM
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: lostvaquero on June 14, 2017, 10:17:57 AM
Hi 40!

If I were "calling the shots" (pun intended) and wanted to grow WBAS, I would have a category where a semi-auto pistol was allowed at SASS matches.  :o Basically, it would be SASS with a semi-auto pistol. You could be flexible about the rifle caliber too. (Don't tell HJ that I wrote this. ;) )

We have a dedicated WBAS club at my home venue. There are several WBAS shooters who never shoot SASS and one who sold his SASS guns and only shoots WBAS, IDPA...

If this category brought in sufficient new shooters, maybe some day, you could have a dedicated by-the-rules WBAS club.

Regards,

AM

I see something of the same.  WBAS here has maybe five to eight and I am not sure how many are even interested.  I do know that some Cowboy shooters do not like the idea of having to do another rifle or shotgun.  I know some cowboy shooters would not like that but I think most would not care as long as things are scored differently.  The big argument has been that most TO/ROs are not trained on semi-autos.  That would be something that would have to be changed. 

One club did something like this though for a bit and not sure why it dropped off (I am thinking WB came along but it was before I started with the club) called Turn of the Century cowboy.  Same cowboy setup as the cowboy shooters but instead of two single action revolvers it was any semi-auto up to about 1917.  Of course that would be something SASS would have to decide on. 

However whether that would draw more people to WB or not is not certain.  CAS is having enough trouble with keeping its numbers up, most of the cowboys including me are getting on and while I see some younger folks (less than 50) come around by far most younger shooters are heading off to 3 gun.  It is what they are used to seeing.  I have tried 3 gun but my knees and hips cannot take some of the scenarios.  That being said, I have sometimes gone to 3 gun and instead taken my cowboy or WB guns instead.  I am not competitive at all and with the cowboy guns definitely puts me at the bottom.  However, I see a few of the younger crowd watch and start asking questions.  A few ask about CAS and I tell them about that and also WB which might appeal to being used to semi crowd.  Flipping open a schofield has gotten a few to go "OH WOW! I did not know they could do that!"  I have talked to the local 3 gun match director and he indicated that enough (3 or more) people want to shoot the scenarios with cowboy style guns he would call it a separate scoring category almost like the Western 3 gun. 

Well off the soapbox now.

Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Grouchy Spike on June 14, 2017, 12:45:58 PM
I don't have a suggestion yet, but continue to gather information and living in Texas I look at activity at area clubs in South Central Texas - Houston and a bit north; Austin area; San Antonio area.

The 2017 OK State WB match attracted about 37 shooters, and 18 or so participated in the Bolt Action Military Rifle Side Match.  Awesome turnout!

The 2016 TX State WB match attracted 13 shooters; the 2015 scores weren't posted but I don't remember that more than 20 participated; the 2014 match attracted 24, and the 2013 match attracted 23.  This is in a state with what is likely the most cowboy clubs in the US (don't know about membership numbers). 

What is different between the OK and TX shooters and hosting clubs that the OK WB match is so well attended and the TX State match in 2016 attracted only 13?  What is the OK club doing to promote the sport that Texas is not?

Is there a core group of IDPA or such competitors at that OK club that includes the CAS and WBAS shooters?

When I talk to cowboys about WB, some have no interest in semiautos. Some have 1911s but haven't committed to shooting WB and seldom shoot their 1911s.  Some enjoy CAS to the extent that they play nothing else.  Some observed the difficulties encountered with 1911 and 1897s and want no part of that.  Some don't want to bother with learning how to reload 45 acp and how to participate in WBAS matches.  Many cowboys don't like those distant WB targets - can't shoot as fast as in CAS matches, have more misses and other penalties.  Less gratification!

Next question to ask cowboys:  What would tempt you to join WBAS? 

Cowboy 1911 category in a CAS match shoots CLOSE targets, few participate, so that objection of target distance seems insincere if the cowboys don't pick up a 1911 with which to play and earn that bang-clang gratification.

Observations:

Plum Creek (Lockhart) hosted a WB match on a Sunday after a Saturday CAS match.  Six shooters played.

Willow Hole Cowboys (North Zulch) allows full WB game inside of a CAS match - adds two magazines and shoots those at cowboy rifle targets, so ten pistol targets are a bit close - but fun!  Stokes four shotgun.  Three of us played WB in the last two matches.

Green Mountain Regulators (Marble Falls) allow one to shoot Cowboy 1911 during a CAS match. I've been the lone slide action shooter.

Texican Rangers (Comfort) allow one to shoot Cowboy 1911 during a CAS match.  Usually I'm alone or there are two of us, but Sunday there were three of us.

Texican Rangers host two WB matches a year on 5th Saturday. Ten of us played in April.  I don't recall ever having enough for two posses.

Texas Riviera Pistoleros (George West, south of San Antonio) host four WB matches a year.  Six to eight play, and this is a significant share of their membership.  Compliments to them!

The Tejas Caballeros (Blanco, north of San Antonio) have hosted WB matches in years past, turnout is low, and they've not tried again in 2016 or 2017 but they have relocated their range which is enough distraction.  Whether they gin up in the future I can't predict.

Thunder River Renegades (northwest Houston) last hosted WBAS in 2015, eleven played. I didn't find other WBAS scores.

Old Fort Parker Patriots (north of Waco) haven't posted any WB scores, likely because they don't have any WB matches.

Oakwood (between Dallas and Houston) hosts a WB match on the Monday after their weekend matches.  Six play, as many as eight.  That might be a tough match in which to play as those who are working can't play.

South Texas Pistolaros (San Antonio) are ramping up their WBAS games, hosting what I think is the second one this year although a four stage match instead of five stages.   As Dusty Boddams says, one must bring the parishioners into the 'church' before they can be 'baptized' and STPs are doing that.  This upcoming WBAS match will conflict with a CAS match at the Tejas Cabs.

These are observations and comments, no criticism is intended, apologies if anyone is offended.  I don't want to throw bombs.  Well, maybe enough to uncover the perceived value and look at what is happening.

This is an attempt determine how to INCREASE the value of WBAS for CAS shooters.   To make a plan to make progress, we must know from where we start.

Maybe we should post this thread on the SASS cowboy forum?  That would ask a whole bunch of cowboys?  Great idea, even if I say so myself.  Or has this already been done?  I don't follow that forum closely.

Discussion is welcomed!  Flames too!  Smoke away.

Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Grouchy Spike on June 14, 2017, 01:09:39 PM
I liked my idea so much about asking the cowboys and cowgirls about WBAS that I submitted a post on the SASS forum.  Maybe they will help us increase the value of WBAS for them.

Follow here:

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/263411-cowboyscowgirls-why-dont-you-shoot-wild-bunch/
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Garrison Joe on June 14, 2017, 01:20:03 PM
EOT is apparently on track to have its largest WB match ever starting Saturday.
WR had it's largest WB match ever last February.

Both get advertised heavily, both are conducted as stand-alone WB matches, with their own awards.  Both totally separated from the Cowboy match so pards can easily shoot one or both.   

Maybe it's that folks won't shoot WB unless they have to pay extra and come on another day?   :o ;)   Just joking.

I think it's the visibility and promotion of WB that suffers at individual clubs.   Many Cowboy club officials seem unwilling to even talk up a WB match at their own facility.

Good luck, GJ



Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Ted88160 on June 14, 2017, 04:45:19 PM
Afternoon fellas, wanted to reply, before I head out for EOT. My home club, Pawnee Station, at Great Guns Sporting in Nunn, Colorado, holds a monthly Wild Bunch match the Sunday after the 3rd Saturday cowboy match. I have been writing and setting up the stages for the last 3 years.  My scenarios are written for 7 round magazines. Round count for a match is usually between 150 to 200 acp. Stages vary between 21 rounds to 35 rounds of acp. Once in a great while I'll throw in a 42 round pistol only stage.  We enjoy 6 stages of Wild Bunch on these Sundays. We don't have a big following, but we're happy to get 8 to 10 shooters. Sometimes more sometimes less. My rifle count varies from 5 rounds per stage to 10, shotgun no less than 4, mostly 5 or 6 rounds per stage. We also have a variety of targets, dueling trees to standard targets, to 2 new target sets (tombstone rack and a cowboy plate rack), yet to be used. We are starting to see some new interest from the local "all auto shooters". Target sets are the same for cowboy, just moved back some. Might add a couple here and there, but setup is simple and less strenuous for a two day shoot. Just my 2 cents worth. You're all invited to come out to Pawnee for the Colorado State Championship, September 30th & October 1st. Fun with a 1911, the Colorado way.
TriggerHappy Ted #88160
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Grouchy Spike on June 14, 2017, 07:13:36 PM
Thanks for your replies to this thread.

Check out the response on the SASS Wire when I questioned cowboys and cowgirls about why they didn't shoot WBAS. That is interesting and informative, some information that WBAS can use to expand the game.  Hopefully the responses will continue, and we consider them and act on them.

Father Kit Cool Gun Garth added some humor and I'm still laughing about his reply!

THT, you delivered a bunch of information in your post.  I want to ponder that.  Good luck at EOT!

GJ mentions publicity, or lack of it  - good thought.
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on June 15, 2017, 05:20:44 AM
Grouchy Spike, I took your advice and read your thread on the SASS wire. It was very interesting to say the least. There are the usual "I want to shoot this gun" types. e.g.. Luger, Broomhandle, SxS, Glock and etc. They are plinkers and don't add to a competitive sport. What was interesting was the number of comments by serious cowboy competitors who are not interested because of the 5 rounds in the mag limitation. WB is too much like shooting cowboy with a 1911.

GS, I do think you need broaden your horizons. You framed the question on the SASS wire, "Cowboys and cowgirls, several of us Wild Bunch Action Shooters are having a discussion on the Wild Bunch forum about how to increase the value of Wild Bunch Action Shooting to attract more CAS shooters into the WBAS game. . . . " Do we really want to limit the growth of WB to CAS shooters? SASS membership is aging and declining. Not the kind of demographic that anyone wants to market to.
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Grouchy Spike on June 15, 2017, 07:24:19 AM
" Do we really want to limit the growth of WB to CAS shooters? SASS membership is aging and declining. Not the kind of demographic that anyone wants to market to.

JFN, you make a good point.  I solicited comments from the CAS shooters because they are members of SASS or shoot at SASS events if not SASS members. Increasing their participation into another SASS event should increase the value of their membership in or association with SASS clubs and might attract more shooters to WBAS.

I am not familiar with the IPSC and similar disciplines, so I'd not be qualified to talk intelligently to those shooters.  Someone who plays or has played with them should undertake a survey with them.  I've watched a few videos so I'd be what's called 'an internet expert'. 

Their stages are inside berms, a different setup compared to CAS ranges with which I am familiar.    They run multiple stages simultaneously and independently of each other.  Those setups allow the shooter to move downrange while shooting, and then they declare a downrange to score and tape their paper or cardboard targets.  There is much more movement, different rules, different weapons, higher ammo count compared to WBAS that our game should seem almost boring to the IPSC type shooter.  Our game should require a nearly complete makeover to morph into the IPSC type game, and that might add competition to an already satisfied market. That change would not offer a revolutionary different game to anyone.

I don't think that we can make such significant or revolutionary changes that would drive WBAS further from CAS. 

7-round magazines, M1917 revolvers would be the most evolutionary change for WBAS, additional gauges and calibers less so.   Those changes would not move WBAS far from where it is now, might attract additional shooters.

I haven't had coffee yet, so maybe my thoughts are muddled.  Your comments? 

Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: August West on June 15, 2017, 10:12:52 AM
  Your comments?

Deconstructing any concept is simple and easy and cerebral compared to the work of assembling (reassembling) the pieces into a coherent whole. 

Anecdotal remarks about the elements of Wild Bunch, offered by individuals who do not participate in Wild Bunch, have been stated regularly in many forums where where such deconstruction has been entertained.  The nature of those remarks hasn't changed over the years -- rifle caliber, magazine capacity, shot string, antique automatic pistols, money, time, the rules.   When those issues have been accommodated publicly, at matches, and in discussions, the people who originally made the remarks have been no more inclined to come out and participate than before.  The conclusion: such discussions hold no value for enhancing Wild Bunch.

On the other hand, building something that is attractive, dependable, and practical is hard work.  Making a commitment to regular monthly matches, advertising those matches, supporting the people who participate in those matches, and listening to their reactions and concerns all lead to participation.   

Not to say the glass is half-full.  It's probably more like 20% full.  But, that's real and important and positive.  There are dedicated Wild Bunch shooters who love this game and want it to continue.  The concerns of individuals who cared not to walk through the doorway labeled "Wild Bunch" are of little importance.

I feel the discussion on the SASS Wire is ill-advised, leading to more inertia among cowboy shooters, and galvanizing sentiment against Wild Bunch Action Shooting.  You asked!

There are a thousand reasons to sit on the sofa, rather than participate in a shooting sport.   It's not smart to support that thinking.
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: lostvaquero on June 15, 2017, 11:25:12 AM
August you make a very valid point.  It is advertising and showing what is there that will get more people going then anything else.

I have gone to a 3 gun match with cowboy guns.  People love it, asked questions and several expressed interest but the bottom line came down to they had already invested a ton of money in their 3 guns and just could not justify buying more (or that was the excuse).  Due to hip and joint problems I have given up 3 gun and sold off most of the equipment and that is what brought me to WBAS.  I do CAS, and WBAS seemed like a good step back from 3 gun but still a bit different than CAS.

I am not sure how many people one can draw from IPDA, IPSC or 3 gun.  The later to me at least is really a young person's sport, so maybe as everyone starts getting the aches and realizes that sliding through barrels is not working as it used to might like me find something else.  Then that leaves the other pool of people which is the sport that WB grew out of and that is the SASS/CAS folks.

As you mentioned acomendations have been given but I am not sure how many places do that or how well it is made known to some of the CAS only crowd.  A lot of people do look at the handbooks and just end up shrugging going 'Well ain't going to buy another rifle" or whatever.  A lot to think about and I have no real answer but I do give a lot of kudos to Grouchy for putting the topic out there and getting the talking and thinking going.

And after having some good strong tea and rereading a lot on the Wire I will agree that the 5 round in the mag has been mentioned but plenty mentioned that the start of WB pre-formal SASS sounded a lot more fun.  Sure some of those 1917 revolvers and lugers might be plinkers, but in my opinion that is like saying using a replica open top colt or cap and ball pistol is just plinking because if your really serious you would be using a set of rugers and a 73.  There are a lot of people who shoot CAS because they want to have fun and do not worry about being in the top five overall shooters.   A couple more categories to me would not hurt. 

As for drawing only from SASS folks I agree but I think that is still where a majority will come from.  Most of the younger (20s and 30s) that I have been around could care less about dressing up, wearing boots that kind of thing.  The fact that some of the higher placed shooters sport shirts covered in logos and sponsors, with baseball caps and shorts is almost a uniform.

To me CAS/WBAS suffers from not enough exposure and of course the fact that the Western has not been a major theme on TV or in the theaters for a long time with few exceptions.  While I know a lot do not like the sci-fi theme of HBO Westworld, the fact that it has caught on gives exposure.  You might not get to shoot life like androids but come on down people, and pretend your in Westworld, let's see those six gun skills.  Oh you want a bit more fun?  Well step right this way...we call it Wild Bunch.

Sorry, off the soapbox again.
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Grouchy Spike on June 16, 2017, 01:34:44 PM
Good discussion! 

"The conclusion: such discussions hold no value for enhancing Wild Bunch."  Could be, but I didn't see much happening to stimulate growth and I'm ready to stimulate at least some conversation!

Some comments on the SASS wire may be insincere comments and even if overcome the commenter would not play WBAS no matter what.  Local WBAS matches can offer an Open Category address the rifle caliber and shotgun type and even gauge, so those objections can be overcome.

5-rounds vs 7-rounds may be debated forever, but that does not seem to be in insurmountable challenge.  Start with FIVE!  Test interest in seven rounds in a subsequent match.

THIS!!!  "On the other hand, building something that is attractive, dependable, and practical is hard work.  Making a commitment to regular monthly matches, advertising those matches, supporting the people who participate in those matches, and listening to their reactions and concerns all lead to participation. " 

The comments that address a lack of WB matches are revealing.  It's the local interest that will start a WBAS group. Nothing happens otherwise.  How to gin up the interest of the club members is now the focus.  If the WB requirements are strictly adhered to and the potential market doesn't have the gear and doesn't want to commit money to address it, likely nothing happens. 

If the requirements are relaxed and some of the reluctant market drags out some safe queens that won't ever meet the requirements, we at least have the reluctant share of the market shooting a game other than CAS and headed toward WBAS.

Inviting other potential customers to drag up and shoot a scenario with borrowed weapons can stimulate interest.  I'm not addressing the legal liability incurred by the lender in this situation. That's an individual decision.

The learning curve on operation of the 1911 particularly in malfunction drills is a poisonous snake in the grass, particularly when coupled with potential ammo problems reloaded by a newbie to reloading 45 acp.  I can understand how a newbie would become discouraged.

Target distance has not been addressed in many responses.  That may be another poisonous snake in the grass because an inexperienced 1911 shooter may have (will have) more misses than in CAS if targets are set further out than CAS targets.  Solution - begin with closer targets.

It's important that new participants be mentored during this climb up the learning curve. Operation, Maintenance, and light repairs of the 1911 and that often 'praised' 1897, choice and maintenance of 1911 magazines, reloading techniques, practice, shooting techniques, etc must be taught and learned.

So not only must WBAS be talked up locally and advertised, the effort may cost money and will cost time to those making the effort to introduce the game or to increase participation.

How do we encourage and support those potential disciples who would initiate the local efforts?

Some of those are revealing their identities on that SASS thread.  As a start, perhaps they could be contacted and mentored through this process of introducing and sustaining WBAS.

Perhaps SASS should appoint a WBAS Product Manager to do this?  That person may already exist as Happy Jack! If so, how can we support him?

I have more questions than answers.  But I do have some limited experience.

Dusty Boddams, at the 2014 Texas State WB Match, put a BAM rifle and ammo in my hands and said "shoot"!  That hooked me.  At the home club I talked it up among some cowboys and two cowboys pulled out some old bolts. Then I asked the president about starting a BAM side match, and he agreed.  I spent a few rounds of ammo on introductions to others, and  since February 2015 the group has grown to seventeen and two clubs are shooting BAM.  Even the president showed up with his Mauser to join the group.

August West hit the nail on the head about expanding participation!  Now comes the propoal - August, can you join the effort to expand participation? 

Lost Vaquero, you may be a newbie on a soapbox but you also have The Vision.  Can you join the effort too?

Send me a PM, let's exchange email addresses and make something happen.  And that invitation is extended to anyone else who want to make something happen.  I have only a rudimentary plan, but I have a vision! Happy Jack, chime in.

Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Grouchy Spike on June 20, 2017, 12:54:52 PM
What would YOU suggest to get more folks interested in shooting Wild Bunch?
PLEASE DO NOT START A PRAIRIE FIRE!!!

Back 40, the question that I posed in this SASS thread didn't start a prairie fire, more like it started a wave.  If you've not stayed abreast of it:

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/263411-cowboyscowgirls-what-would-attract-you-to-wild-bunch/
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Back 40 on June 22, 2017, 09:58:33 AM
Thanks for the update Grouchy Spike.    I just rolled in from E.O.T. Wild Bunch Championship late last night and am catching up on a lot of info.   GREAT comments here!!!   I am passionate about Wild Bunch and got the chance to meet some great folks who share my interest.   
Just a few of the things I came away with from EOT:

Almost everyone I talked to was in favor of 7 over 5.   We'll see

"WE", that is, Cowboy Action Shooters AND Wild Bunch Shooters, MUST ALL START SUPPORTING EACH OTHER!!!!!!   What really grips me is when I hear Cowboy Shooters knock Wild Bunch shooters.  WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    LET'S START SUPPORTING EACH OTHER.   THERE IS NO NEED TO BASH SOMEONE ELSE'S SHOOTING SPORT!!

And finally, I would like to see more support and promotion from the SASS Office.   I realize they are busy.   But WB is and "income" to them.   Enough said.

WOW, the EOT WB match was AWESOME!!! 
Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: Grouchy Spike on June 22, 2017, 12:54:08 PM
Back 40, good to hear that you enjoy the 'sliding' in WBAS matches! 

I prefer to slide, but if the choice is revolve or stay home, I'll revolve.  More shooting is usually always better except at 90F+, where the mind is willing but the body ain't.

So are you gonna promote more club involvement in WBAS matches and side matches?  I don't recall your home state, hopefully they have a state WB match in which to play.

Title: Re: What would YOU suggest?
Post by: lostvaquero on June 23, 2017, 08:16:18 AM
Thanks for the update Grouchy Spike.    I just rolled in from E.O.T. Wild Bunch Championship late last night and am catching up on a lot of info.   GREAT comments here!!!   I am passionate about Wild Bunch and got the chance to meet some great folks who share my interest.   
Just a few of the things I came away with from EOT:

Almost everyone I talked to was in favor of 7 over 5.   We'll see

"WE", that is, Cowboy Action Shooters AND Wild Bunch Shooters, MUST ALL START SUPPORTING EACH OTHER!!!!!!   What really grips me is when I hear Cowboy Shooters knock Wild Bunch shooters.  WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    LET'S START SUPPORTING EACH OTHER.   THERE IS NO NEED TO BASH SOMEONE ELSE'S SHOOTING SPORT!!

And finally, I would like to see more support and promotion from the SASS Office.   I realize they are busy.   But WB is and "income" to them.   Enough said.

WOW, the EOT WB match was AWESOME!!!


I agree on the mutual support.  I am not sure if CAS shooters knock WB shooters though.  After reading and participating in the discussion most CAS shooters seem to be knocking the current setup of WB. 

My quick summary take was what was started as a fun unofficial side match went to restrictive.
If youndo not like the current WB rules then do not play, so must did exactly that.
Some said interested but no WB match nearby.
The questions remained of what to do.

Suggestions ran on the former from complete rule change back to pre official rule days, major and minor categories, open class to just allowb 38 rifle.

As for the later a bit less suggestions but seemed most ended up centering on running a regular CAS match and having or letting persons use a 1911 or WB movie pistol or revolver instead to drum up interest.

A few feathers got ruffled but overall my impression was CAS would like to see WB grow.