The SASS Wild Bunch Forum

Wild Bunch Boards => The Wild Bunch Wire => Topic started by: UnionJack on June 27, 2017, 11:02:09 AM

Title: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: UnionJack on June 27, 2017, 11:02:09 AM
Is it just me or do the categories results and overall results not add up or match .....AGAIN .

We had better sort this scoring system and soon or we will have more to worry about than 5 or 7 rounds in a magazine attracting people to this sport .
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Happy Jack on June 27, 2017, 11:14:49 AM
It is all very simple. When you score WITHIN category  (in this case fewer than 6 shooters) a SDQ is HUGE and moves a shooter who won 6 of the stages well down in the results.   THEN when you decide to re-score the results with everyone in the same pool (80 shooters) to get overall the SDQ becomes less significant and the OVERALL points scored based on the performance within the large pool moves the shooter to the top.  That happens with ANY scoring system that allows scoring within category and then re-scores the total shooters in a larger pool to get the overall top shooters. If you use total time or Rank points and score within category and then re-score for overall it can happen. If you score only overall and then pull category placements out of the results the shooters in EVERY other category affect the shooters placement.  You can't have it both ways. Either score within category and then overall and get different results occasionally or score overall and let other shooters affect category placement. 
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: UnionJack on June 27, 2017, 11:45:55 AM
So in that case why bother with an overall if you are going to skew the scoring ? I  understand the method and the reasoning although I don't agree with it, but if you have a category with an order and then you hand out a Championship award with a different result you diminish the appearance of the awards.
Personally I believe that a SDQ should be of huge significance regardless, if there has been a safety rule violation severe enough to warrant a DQ then it should carry the penalty.
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Lone Dog on June 27, 2017, 12:06:53 PM
so who won? how many shooters?
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on June 27, 2017, 12:39:37 PM
If you are going to award an overall lady, that award needs to be based on lady scores only.  Not pulled from an overall list were the men's times have moved the lady shooter's placings around.
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Happy Jack on June 27, 2017, 01:09:14 PM
I have ALWAYS been opposed to an "overall winner" when you have categories.  SASS venues are the only ones in the world that have BOTH category winners and overall winners. Every other shooting sport has only one or the other.   My position is not shared by most of those in charge however.
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Joe Lafives #5481L on June 27, 2017, 06:14:23 PM
Of course it becomes a non problem if you use total time.
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on June 27, 2017, 08:00:41 PM
I have ALWAYS been opposed to an "overall winner" when you have categories.  SASS venues are the only ones in the world that have BOTH category winners and overall winners. Every other shooting sport has only one or the other.   My position is not shared by most of those in charge however.
I agree with that. It should be done away with.
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on June 27, 2017, 08:32:06 PM
Of course it becomes a non problem if you use total time.
The problem with total time is what do you do with a stage DQ? There is no way to deal with a SDQ in total time so it in essence becomes a Match DQ. And that is not fair. Stage point scoring translates stage time in to points and the shooter gets 0 points for a SDQ. Thus they stay competitive even with a SDQ.

The scores on all three of these Ladies are close. Texas Tiger shot 11 stages that were very competitive but she had a SDQ.  When the Lady shooters are scored together she is in third place. But when all the shooters are lumped together the basis for her points is the high scoring modern man on each stage and she moves up ahead of Sixgun Sam and Half-a-Hand Henri.

So you have two ways of looking at it. First choice, decide that the Overall Lady should be derived by comparing only Lady scores. Or, Second, say, "Look at how well TT shot when compared with all the shooters at the match, even with a SDQ."  Recognizing that there will be reversals as there was at this match where TT won the Overall Lady but placed 3rd in her category.

P.S. Should the Overall Lady recognize the high scoring Lady among the Lady shooters or should it recognize the high scoring Lady of all the shooters?
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Garrison Joe on June 27, 2017, 11:42:59 PM
(A lot of this confusion for the initial scores released from EOT was due to data entry error.  Watch out for tempests in teapots.)
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Back 40 on June 28, 2017, 05:45:28 PM
What J. Frank said...........................
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Garrison Joe on June 28, 2017, 07:57:37 PM
There is a third way that I have proposed to the WB committee that guarantees (mathematically) to keep the category rankings straight and still allow some hope of declaring an overall champ who makes sense.   

Do the stage point scoring on each category (separate from all others).  Take the top male and top female shooter in each category and figure a "fraction of best shooter" total times.  Multiply each (male or female) shooter's stage points in category by that (male or female) adjusting factor and compare all the adjusted stage points.   Put all shooters into that adjusted point order.  You have an overall that keeps all shooters in a category in their same order, but allows comparisons between the various categories.

It went no where last few times I suggested it.  Oh well. It would have made for a clean result this EOT, I am pretty sure, but I don't have access to the total time numbers for shooters to actually check it out.

It is a REAL abomination that we do not publish the stage times for each shooter, just the stage points.  As long as we continue that practice, no one but the match director and scoring folks will ever know how to do this better!

Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: August West on June 29, 2017, 06:49:11 AM

It is a REAL abomination that we do not publish the stage times for each shooter,

Yup!
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Grouchy Spike on June 29, 2017, 05:02:14 PM
This is beginning to look as though it is created by the US Congress! 
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Tully Mars on July 01, 2017, 10:11:10 AM
In my opinion as long as there is an overall winner awarded it should be in the order of finish in regards to every shooter. SDQ's suck! But when pushing your limits in competition they can happen. If this was a sport with money on the table I'm sure things would be different.

If a SDQ becomes an automatic unrecoverable penalty then we won't see true on the edge competition. Do we really want to discourage shooters at State, National and World championship's from pushing their limits?

Fact is both Idaho Six Gun Sam and Texas Tiger shot great matches looking at the results.

Looking at the final scores I see at least one other SDQ and that shooter had a very respectable finish. Having had SDQ's myself and finishing well in the pack I've always felt blessed. It's a shame to shoot six winning stages and not be at least recognized for the accomplishment.

It's my opinion that both shooter's in this case received acknowledgment for shooting great matches. I'm sure each shooter wishes things could have been different, but that's life.

Stage times should be available, how else can a shooter see how and where to improve?

Tully
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Happy Jack on July 01, 2017, 11:15:30 AM
Since I NEVER look at posted scores at the end of each day I wasn't aware that points were being posted instead of actual stage times. I will see to it that is changed next year at EOT. Shooters TIMES should be posted NOT points. Also probably only the shooters SASS # instead of their names will be posted with the times.
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Tully Mars on July 01, 2017, 11:43:05 AM
Winter Range did a very nice job of posting the times directly above the shooters percentage.
Thanks HJ,
Tully
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on July 05, 2017, 04:58:48 PM
Since I NEVER look at posted scores at the end of each day I wasn't aware that points were being posted instead of actual stage times. I will see to it that is changed next year at EOT. Shooters TIMES should be posted NOT points. Also probably only the shooters SASS # instead of their names will be posted with the times.
HJ,
The stage times were posted not the points.
JFN
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Garrison Joe on July 05, 2017, 06:51:51 PM
HJ is talking daily shooter-check scoresheets, posted on the wall at Founders as shot each day.  Yes, all those were posted as raw time, penalties and total time.

Most of the post here is about the final times posted to the EOT web site and used to make the presentation of awards.   THAT was published as stage points only.   That is where the consternation rises way up into the throat.   ;D

Good luck, GJ 
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Allie Mo on July 15, 2017, 09:45:39 AM
So tell me is it true that someone with a SDQ and was third in category won overall for their gender?  How is that fair?
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on July 15, 2017, 06:06:14 PM
So tell me is it true that someone with a SDQ and was third in category won overall for their gender?  How is that fair?

Cuz' She beat the ladies on six of the stages, essentially tied them on four stages, had one bad stage and an SDQ. How did it happen? She out-shot them on the rest of the match. So turn the question around, "How is it fair for a lady shooter that is turning in times that are competitive to the modern men to be essentially kicked out of the match by an SDQ?" If she can out-shoot them on 11 stages and still win, she needs the trophy! If they don't like it, learn to shoot better! This is a shooting match, not a costume contest!

If I remember correctly (and I may not) Long Hunter won the world championship in traditional years ago with an SDQ. He simply out shot everyone else on 11 stages.  This is the advantage to stage point scoring.
JFN
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: lostvaquero on July 16, 2017, 12:48:49 AM
So does the announcement that cowboy sanctioned matches state and above are now Total Time apply to WB as well?
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Back 40 on July 16, 2017, 04:11:16 PM
Lostvaquero, I believe the WB rules committee would say no at this time.   
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: marshal stone on July 17, 2017, 12:56:41 PM
Lostvaquero, I believe the WB rules committee would say no at this time.

 I know at least three if not all four members of the rules committee support the current scoring method.

Marshal Stone
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Last Chance on July 17, 2017, 02:51:52 PM
"WildBunch scoring has not changed at this time" - Texas Jack Morales
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Happy Jack on July 22, 2017, 09:33:34 AM
Just back from 10 days in Michigan.    Wild Bunch scoring has NOT CHANGED at this time.    However we do not own SASS so they may make a decision for us.
Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Col. Cornelius Gilliam on July 26, 2017, 12:30:51 PM
Of course it becomes a non problem if you use total time.
The problem with total time is what do you do with a stage DQ? There is no way to deal with a SDQ in total time so it in essence becomes a Match DQ. And that is not fair. Stage point scoring translates stage time in to points and the shooter gets 0 points for a SDQ. Thus they stay competitive even with a SDQ.

Actually, the SASS recommended SDQ for total time - 5 seconds per available miss on the stage plus 30 seconds works really well in my experience.

Title: Re: E.O.T. Results Missmatch ??
Post by: Kid Rich on July 26, 2017, 12:40:12 PM
Of course it becomes a non problem if you use total time.
The problem with total time is what do you do with a stage DQ? There is no way to deal with a SDQ in total time so it in essence becomes a Match DQ. And that is not fair. Stage point scoring translates stage time in to points and the shooter gets 0 points for a SDQ. Thus they stay competitive even with a SDQ.

Actually, the SASS recommended SDQ for total time - 5 seconds per available miss on the stage plus 30 seconds works really well in my experience.
I agree.
kR