The SASS Wild Bunch Forum

Wild Bunch Boards => Wild Bunch Rules Forum => Topic started by: Two Dot on July 13, 2017, 06:52:04 PM

Title: Scoring
Post by: Two Dot on July 13, 2017, 06:52:04 PM
Since no one else brought this up.
Are we going to scrap stage point scoring
and go with total time now that SASS has done so?
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Boggus Deal on July 13, 2017, 07:07:28 PM
Not if I have a say! All other action shooting sports use a rank/stage point scoring system. Going to total time is yet another reason cowboy action will continue to be the laughing stock of shooting sports. WBAS is a shooting sport, not just a speed event of how fast can you hit barn doors with the muzzles of your guns.
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Two Dot on July 13, 2017, 08:02:56 PM
No offense, but until we put scoring zones on the targets your comparison isn't valid.
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Silvertip on July 13, 2017, 08:35:55 PM
Total time
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Boggus Deal on July 13, 2017, 09:15:37 PM
No offense, but until we put scoring zones on the targets your comparison isn't valid.
First, my friend, no offense here! We are more adult than to be offended by an opinion. But what has the the targets got to do with the scoring system? Having shot 3 gun, USPCA and IDPA I get the scoring zones and while I would like to see more difficult targets, like Western 3gun, the scoring is still the scoring. Always open for opinions, comments, ideas and suggestions!
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Two Dot on July 13, 2017, 09:42:02 PM
The stage points system was a compromise to allow us something closer to total time when it was rank points or nothing. That time has passed. Until we have scoring zones it is either full points or none. Hit or miss. Total time covers this in a more simple manor. This will avoid many of the scoring "anomalies" that seem to plague our major matches.
Maybe we should see what our shooters prefer?
Two Dot
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: marshal stone on July 14, 2017, 01:21:58 PM

If we are going to stay with the stage point scoring, as much as it pains me to say so, I think we need to consider doing away with the so called "overall" winners. This is were the "anomalies" appear to come in. Two cases in point, 1. a third place finisher in category wins overall for that gender. 2. the second place finisher in another category finished 3 positions ahead of the category winner in the overall.

It is confusing the hell out of a lot of people how this can happen.

It's like we are using two different scoring methods, one in category and another for overall.

Marshal Stone
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Samuel B Carpenter on July 14, 2017, 01:27:33 PM
Weeel, for us simple guys with enough problems counting using fingers when adding 2+2

We like to use total time

In the end total time gives the same answer in a single category or when mixing them all together

KISS my friends, is the answer


Samuel B

Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: KingSnake on July 14, 2017, 02:20:02 PM
I'll keep shooting WB no matter what does or doesn't change.
But I do prefer Total Time. JMHO


KS
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Tully Mars on July 15, 2017, 06:39:59 AM
Total Time would be my preference.
Tully
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Allie Mo on July 15, 2017, 09:37:46 AM
Total Time Scoring please.

I don't really care if we are laughed at.

At least with total time, a person who is third in their category with a SDQ, can't be first overall. I heard that happened at EOT.

Regards,

Allie
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on July 15, 2017, 05:47:18 PM
I strongly disagree! TT essentially gives a shooter with a SDQ a MDQ.

Yes, rank points was the worst scoring system I have ever seen. It should have been gone years ago. I think that it is a mistake for SASS to go to TT, they should have gone to stage points.

Stage Points is the closest you can get to total time and still give a shooter with a SDQ a fair score. In stage points an SDQ earns a no time, just what they got. In rank points an SDQ got 999.99 seconds (i.e. the max of rank points) and now in TT they get a penalty of 5 seconds a target with 30 seconds added. So not only does an SDQ in SASS get no time, an SDQ becomes a penalty of 150 seconds on a 10-10 & 4 stage! Stage points removed the SDQ penalty of both rank points and total time.

I hope that this doesn't sound too offensive but I need to say it anyway. Over the years I have read a lot of the posts advocating TT. I have grown tired of folks advocating TT simply because they can't do simple math. I would rather have a scoring system that is fair to all shooters including the one who earns an SDQ than one that caters to the lowest level of math abilities of the shooting population. Stage points is that scoring system.
JFN
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Two Dot on July 15, 2017, 06:20:10 PM
Mr. Nor fleet I can do basic math and then some. I disagree when you want to ease the impact of a safety infraction serious enough to earn a stage DQ. 5 seconds per target + 30 seconds does not equal a match DQ.
I'm fine with disagreeing but don't insult my intelligence by saying I cannot do basic math.
Two Dot
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Tully Mars on July 16, 2017, 06:47:57 AM
The problem isn't simple math, the problem is understanding how shooters can go from third to overall winner. Personally I think there's nothing wrong with the current system or with the results of EOT. The final results recognize how well each shooter shot in regards to those in their category and overall against everyone else. As long as we offer overall and category winners shooters placement may change.

I do however like TT because it's simply straight forward and would eliminate the "perception of unfairness". Or get rid of overall winner, which doesn't seem right either.

Tully



Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on July 16, 2017, 07:35:56 AM
The problem isn't simple math, the problem is understanding how shooters can go from third to overall winner. Personally I think there's nothing wrong with the current system or with the results of EOT. The final results recognize how well each shooter shot in regards to those in their category and overall against everyone else. As long as we offer overall and category winners shooters placement may change.

I do however like TT because it's simply straight forward and would eliminate the "perception of unfairness". Or get rid of overall winner, which doesn't seem right either.

Tully

In the results of any match you have overall results and category results posted. Anytime you resort from category to overall you shift the point value of a shooter's time on a stage. Example:Capitan Regulator won Traditional. In the category results he got a 100% of the points on six stages because he won six stages in his category. But when you look at the overall scores he didn't win any stages and now his points change because they are scored against shooters from other categories. The whole problem exists because of the two sorts. Anytime you resort, people move to different spots in the sort.

It is my understanding that the WBAS committee wanted to only have category winners and no overall winners because the categories represent independent matches. There is a Modern match, a Traditional match, and etc. That makes a lot of sense to me. But SASS overruled them. Hence the dumping of the category results into an overall results to get the overall winners.

So what now?
- do nothing and recognize there can be shifting of placings when the scores are resorted to overall.
- do away with overall winners and only post the category results.
- don't sort in to category results and pick the category placings off of the overall results.
- have the program rewritten to sort results for overall man and overall lady. Recognizing that there still will be shifting but not as extreme.
JFN

PS If you are using ACES there is a way to separate the men from the ladies. After all the scores are entered you can go back into  edit shooters and delete all the men. This doesn't completely delete them it just means they don't show in the results. You can now print an overall score for Ladies only. Then go back to edit shooters and delete the Ladies and un-delete the men. Now you can print an overall score for the men only.
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Back 40 on July 16, 2017, 09:51:49 AM
Amen Brother!!
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: UnionJack on July 16, 2017, 03:39:25 PM
Mr. Nor fleet I can do basic math and then some. I disagree when you want to ease the impact of a safety infraction serious enough to earn a stage DQ. 5 seconds per target + 30 seconds does not equal a match DQ.
I'm fine with disagreeing but don't insult my intelligence by saying I cannot do basic math.
Two Dot

Completely agree here ,TT .
As to  the SDQ ,if its serious enough then it should be a game changer, if it is not, then down grade it to a minor safety. Personally I really don't like the three level system . Either its minor and used as a warning/wake up or its major and that's your match done ,take the Timer of shame or a counting stick and think about what you did .
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Tully Mars on July 17, 2017, 07:09:27 AM
Maybe we just do away with overall? If the men's and women's scores or rank are separated to get results for overall that's not really representative of the true overall placement. If we keep any scoring system were folks are ranked or scored amongst those in their category and then against everyone else's rankings will change. So we either get rid of overall, find a system that will not allow results to change when going from category to overall (TT) or live with knowing things may change. Personally I think the system works, but it rewards a SDQ which I've benefited from and personal overall standings will likely change for some.

Many of us have shot matches we haven't been happy with and sat in the chairs at the awards and clapped for a shooter who is in the top 10 with a SDQ, it hurts and doesn't seem right, but when the scores are out and we can truly see how well the person did in that particular match I would like to think most of us move past being butt hurt to feeling good for the shooter.

TT is just straight forward and works, SDQ's will hurt us badly though.

Tully 
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Samuel B Carpenter on July 23, 2017, 03:11:24 AM

 howdy my friends

 I've been thinkin of this for a while and are still befuzzeled
 if a shooter has 11 perfect stages and earn them self a SDQ,
 we are to award them inorder to let them still be in the game - remember we earn penalties -
 BUT the poor bastard that have had a match of his life and have shoot 12 perfect stages, but a bit slower is  beaten by a sdq - not right in my book.

Total Time SDQ - x misses + 30 sec
Tie - the winner is the one with the fastes stagetime starting on the last stage

Samuel B   
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Tully Mars on July 23, 2017, 05:53:47 AM
I for one agree Sammy!

It simplifies everything and it gets rid of the illusion of inappropriate placement in the final standings of a shooter.

Besides SDQ's are truly a major safety violation that should effect a shooters outcome. A good friend pointed out that earning SDQ should be a time for education, and reflect. Reflecting on your unsafe movements or gun handling and educating and training yourself not to repeat that particular violation again. So yes my opinion on getting a SDQ has changed within the time frame of this "post".
   
TT has always been the scoring method I've believe in. But if we're using the Stage Rank or any other system we should live with the standings knowing placements will change if we have overall winners as well as category winners.

Tully

Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Happy Jack on July 23, 2017, 10:04:44 AM
A few things to think about:
#1.  SASS is the ONLY shooting organization on the planet with SDQ's. Every other shooting sport only has MDQ's or nothing. The thought was that a SDQ was worse than a MSV but should NOT remove the shooter from placing in the match if they did really well the rest of the match. Do I think it is a good system?? NO, but it will NOT change. It is impossible to come up with a time for a SDQ that is fair for all types of matches. In matches such as EOT Misses + 150 is an automatic MDQ for placement. At other matches where stage times are on average much longer it might work. Remember the miss +30 came about when average stage times were in the 35-45 second range. In their attempt to be "nice" to shooters SASS totally screwed up the penalty issue.
#2. For many years there has been much more of a clamor to score SASS matches within Category than any other way. Stage Points allows that. Total time actually does not.
#3. I have been personally opposed to Overall winners forever, BUT SASS recognizes them in CAS so the same for WBAS. It is interesting AGAIN that SAS is the only shooting sport on the planet that recognizes BOTH Category winners and Overall winners. Any scoring system that is correct within Category will give different results when everyone is placed in a pool to come up with Overall placements.
#4 Stage points does give more weight to stages with more "opportunities to miss" so it is more fair in that respect.
#5. When CD Tom transfered the program into the SAS Match Management system he made a number of mistakes. Some were corrected but not all. That has resulted in messed up results that had to be corrected the last 2 years at both WR and EOT.  Aces only has one known problem and it is with SDQ's but it can be manually overriden. 
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Grizzly Peak Jake on July 24, 2017, 05:53:05 PM

 howdy my friends

 I've been thinkin of this for a while and are still befuzzeled
 if a shooter has 11 perfect stages and earn them self a SDQ,
 we are to award them inorder to let them still be in the game - remember we earn penalties -
 BUT the poor bastard that have had a match of his life and have shoot 12 perfect stages, but a bit slower is  beaten by a sdq - not right in my book.

Total Time SDQ - x misses + 30 sec
Tie - the winner is the one with the fastes stagetime starting on the last stage

Samuel B   

+1
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Col. Cornelius Gilliam on July 26, 2017, 12:55:16 PM
#2. For many years there has been much more of a clamor to score SASS matches within Category than any other way. Stage Points allows that. Total time actually does not.
#3. I have been personally opposed to Overall winners forever, BUT SASS recognizes them in CAS so the same for WBAS. It is interesting AGAIN that SAS is the only shooting sport on the planet that recognizes BOTH Category winners and Overall winners. Any scoring system that is correct within Category will give different results when everyone is placed in a pool to come up with Overall placements.

Ummm, doesn't total time actually work for both these points??

I mean, that's one of the main arguments to use total time??

You can have overall and category winners with total time, and they are not different results. 
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Ted88160 on August 04, 2017, 02:54:19 PM
Fellas, I'm having a very hard time convincing my fellow Wild Bunchers to come and shoot at my Colorado State match, due to the Stage Point scoring system. Mainly due to the recent anomalies that have plagued the major matches the last couple of years, using the current scoring system. Having contacted several of the shooters that shoot Wild Bunch they ask me what scoring system I'm using for the state match. By SASS contract, we're obligated to use Stage Point scoring. My shooters have decline to come and shoot my match, for this very reason, they don't like the current scoring system. They all want Total Time as the main system for scoring a match plain and simple, any match, monthly, annual, state, national or world championship.  I'm losing shooters. I have 6 signed up for my state match. I have less than 10 weeks until my match at the end of September. Any suggestions on how to get them re-interested in Wild Bunch? We're going to see a sharp decline in attendance at our major matches if we don't update some of the rules. I'm sure we can figure out how to handle a SDQ in the scoring. And let's start using the 1911 as it should be, 7 round magazine loads. I for one enjoy shooting both CAS and WB.
TriggerHappy Ted
Pawnee Station CEO/Match Director
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Griff on September 05, 2017, 02:23:13 PM
I argued for TT in cowboy action for several years.  Back in the '80s.  Until the WB sat me down and explained their thinking on the subject.  Same with Stage Point Scoring.

It's the resort that's the problem, not the scoring method.  Overall scores are sorted based off the fastest time of ANY shooter on that stage.  Category placements are simply pulled from that overall sort.  Same as it SHOULD be down with rank points.  A shooter's percentage should only be based off where s/he finished against that fastest time.

As long as the sort is against the fastest time for any shooter per stage, under stage point scoring someone from another category doesn't affect any shooter's percentage, unlike the PERCEPTION in rank point scoring.  AND, unless you resort scores based on individual categories, thereby giving the illusion that someone finished higher or lower in the overall than others in that category.

Categories are an artifice, and SHOULD be viewed simply to easily determine how one did against others in the same age group, or other qualifier.  The CLOCK is a constant, it starts at zero and goes until the last shot.  Where an individual falls in that range should also be a constant... not all of a sudden introducing a different clock.  There should only be ONE clock... not a different clock for Juniors, Seniors & Silver Seniors... ad nauseum.
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Garrison Joe on September 05, 2017, 03:12:45 PM
Yep, simplest scoring with stage points would be, as Griff suggested, "don't stage-point-score each category separately."

Just run the stage points calculation, ignoring whatever category the shooter is in.  Everybody shoots against the fastest shooter (regardless of category) on each stage, and gets points based on that.  Add together each shooter's stage points, and you have total points, and sort that to have the overall ranking (positions).   

Then do the grouping of shooters into their category, carrying those overall positions along, and you get enough information to assign the finish positions within category, and they are guaranteed to reflect the SAME order as their overall finishes would tell you.   No "third place in some category" becoming the overall match winner.

Seems pretty simple.

But, still not as simple as just total time.  ;)

But, it would keep slightly more "suspense" than TT, as you have to wait till the last shooter finishes to see who was going to be the fastest on each stage, to let the fastest pard provide the scoring basis for all the other shooters on each stage.   
Title: Re: Scoring
Post by: Joe Lafives #5481L on November 17, 2017, 06:52:58 PM
I prefer Total time.  After all that is what everyone compares rank or stage to when they see them posted.  Additionally, it seems inconsistent to say - "well the other shooting sports don't use total time" and then talk about SDQ's which they don't use either.   If we are going to have SDQ's then total time works just fine.  Review some of the scores from a variety of matches as I have and see what happens if someone gets an SDQ and yet shoots a perfect match otherwise,  typically they will still place but not first - usually around 7th.  Which to my mind seems perfect.  Not the total loss of a match like an MDQ but not top five either.

Additionally.  I absolutely hate when my score is somehow affected by what others do in a match.  That's never a problem with total time.  Stage scoring is like grading on the curve - When teachers do that it's because they don't know if their test is "fair".