The SASS Wild Bunch Forum

Wild Bunch Boards => The Wild Bunch Wire => Topic started by: Allie Mo on September 19, 2017, 05:34:26 PM

Title: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Allie Mo on September 19, 2017, 05:34:26 PM
Hi Folks,

I'd like to know how many of you would like to make Total Time the official WBAS Scoring at EOT.  Please start another thread for discussion and just stick to whether you'd like that or not.

I've had an ear full of comments against the current WBAS scoring method.

Thanks,

Allie

PS I vote for Total Time scoring.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Boggus Deal on September 19, 2017, 06:54:27 PM
Stage Points. It will keep us one step further away from being cowboy with a 1911.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Flash on September 19, 2017, 07:21:40 PM
Hi Folks,

I'd like to know how many of you would like to make Total Time the official WBAS Scoring at EOT. 
Allie

PS I vote for Total Time scoring.
I would like to have a scoring system that you can tell the total time and what was missed or P'ed or safety violation. So I guess I would like Total time with details.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: lostvaquero on September 19, 2017, 07:38:53 PM
TT
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Lady Jane on September 19, 2017, 08:59:15 PM
Stage points for sure!
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Two Dot on September 19, 2017, 09:36:17 PM
Total time!
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: J.W. Sinclair on September 19, 2017, 11:13:33 PM
I'm going to have to say Total Time.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Samuel B Carpenter on September 20, 2017, 04:54:53 AM

 Total Time
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: KingSnake on September 20, 2017, 05:55:17 AM
Total Time
and my wife, Shotgun Shannon, would also prefer Total Time
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Garrison Joe on September 20, 2017, 07:23:18 AM
No strong preference, but Stage Points with the details left out is not the way to show results.  Stage points with the details included, would be fine by me.

As we drive WB stages to be similar round counts, as Cowboy did over several years (in order to make multiple posses run smoothly at larger matches), the amount of difference in results between SP and TT becomes pretty small.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: August West on September 20, 2017, 09:59:31 AM
Total Time.

I've never been able to understand how the stage point transformation of scores does anything other than obscure results.  At one point, I was open to the idea of trying to understand stage points.  But that train has left my station.  Not only do stage points make match results opaque, they're one more thing in Wild Bunch that is off-putting to new and potential participants.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Medicine Creek Johnny on September 20, 2017, 11:49:31 AM
T T
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Blackfoot on September 20, 2017, 11:51:05 AM
Stage points

Blackfoot
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: UnionJack on September 20, 2017, 12:18:41 PM
Total Time  X2

Or fix the stage points so that it actually works ,To have to admit that the scoring system used at the National and World championships for the last TWO YEARS is flawed and had to be reworked is ludicrous . Either fix it or get rid of it .
Personally I think this is the biggest barrier to participation.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Griff on September 20, 2017, 04:06:51 PM
Stage Points.   Total time simply encourages youthful, adolescent, reckless abandon.  We should be responsible adults.  Matches should ONLY be scored based on the overall finish, with category placements based on overall. 

Total time scoring is a falsehood perpetuated by a weak-willed majority, that want their participation trophy regardless of skill or actual performance.  Any event where raw speed outweighs the ability to hit targets has denigrated into less of a shooting contest and more of a "trigger drag race."

A contest where 4 people that shoot 12, fast, clean stages can be beat by someone that has misses, is no longer a contest of shooting skill.  Let's not become "cowboy with a 1911" all over again.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: UnionJack on September 21, 2017, 07:48:41 AM
Well as one of the apparently "weak willed majority" I would just like to say that I don't care about trophies much one way or another . I do care that the system is fair,works correctly from the start and that it doesn't require manipulating after the fact to get a result. If the scoring algorithm is sound then the formula works. If it doesn't then we need a new one.
If speed combined with accuracy is an issue maybe we should do away with the timer altogether ,that sounds fun......

I may be weak willed but I will continue to stand by the majority .
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Jorge on September 21, 2017, 08:30:30 AM
I am in favor of total time.  It is direct, simple, and no "fudge factors."
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Happy Jack on September 21, 2017, 09:24:40 AM
We intend to keep stage points for major matches. (WR, EOT) Until the problems with DNF's and SDQ's are addressed successfully with TT we plan to keep the system.  As for the issues at EOT the problems occur with ANY scoring system when there is a SDQ or a DNF when you score within category (a small pool) the SDQ or DNF becomes a huge factor.  When you re-score with a large pool (total shooters for overall) the SDQ/DNF becomes a much smaller factor. That is just the way math works.  One thing being considered is IF Overall Winners are going to continue (SASS likes them) Instead of scoring within category and then re-scoring Overall we may just do like TT and RP currently score. Just score everyone together in Overall and then pick the category winners out of that list in order. That would make it impossible for a person to NOT win their category and place above others in their category overall. The downside is you loose the pure within category scoring. You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: VICIOUS on September 21, 2017, 02:03:02 PM
STAGE scoring.  categories only.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Col. Cornelius Gilliam on September 21, 2017, 05:56:17 PM
Total Time
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: DUSTY BODDAMS on September 21, 2017, 06:50:49 PM
Stage Points.   Total time simply encourages youthful, adolescent, reckless abandon.  We should be responsible adults.  Matches should ONLY be scored based on the overall finish, with category placements based on overall. 

Total time scoring is a falsehood perpetuated by a weak-willed majority, that want their participation trophy regardless of skill or actual performance.  Any event where raw speed outweighs the ability to hit targets has denigrated into less of a shooting contest and more of a "trigger drag race."

A contest where 4 people that shoot 12, fast, clean stages can be beat by someone that has misses, is no longer a contest of shooting skill.  Let's not become "cowboy with a 1911" all over again.

  ;D Griff, I was going to say something clever about this like why don't you just say what's on your mind? But it's so well written and makes the point so well that I just have to agree with you and I think you hit the nail on the head! You play'n this weekend? Dusty B
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Back 40 on September 21, 2017, 08:14:10 PM
STAGE POINTS!!
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Allie Mo on September 21, 2017, 08:18:47 PM
Anyone who answered with two words gets a gold star, even if I disagree with you.  ;)
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on September 21, 2017, 09:01:25 PM
Stage points
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Griff on September 21, 2017, 10:09:45 PM
You play'n this weekend? Dusty B
Yes.
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: UnionJack on September 27, 2017, 07:27:54 AM
We intend to keep stage points for major matches. (WR, EOT) Until the problems with DNF's and SDQ's are addressed successfully with TT we plan to keep the system.  As for the issues at EOT the problems occur with ANY scoring system when there is a SDQ or a DNF when you score within category (a small pool) the SDQ or DNF becomes a huge factor.  When you re-score with a large pool (total shooters for overall) the SDQ/DNF becomes a much smaller factor. That is just the way math works.  One thing being considered is IF Overall Winners are going to continue (SASS likes them) Instead of scoring within category and then re-scoring Overall we may just do like TT and RP currently score. Just score everyone together in Overall and then pick the category winners out of that list in order. That would make it impossible for a person to NOT win their category and place above others in their category overall. The downside is you loose the pure within category scoring. You can't have it both ways.

What is the big fear and issue about a SDQ/DNF being a big deal..?..A DNF is a non factor.  They did not finish...next move on . A SDQ is a big deal or at least it should be if it is to count for something. If you screw up badly enough in the eyes of the rule book to cause a SDQ then you don't deserve to place ,you do however get to finish the match .If it is a MDQ then sorry ,off you go.   if you think an infraction that causes a SDQ is no big deal then make it not big deal and down grade it. 
Yes it is a shooting competition and you should be able to hit targets....quickly,for those that consider that speed is not important...well there are shooting sports that don't use timers .
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Angryned on September 27, 2017, 02:08:35 PM
Stage Points
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Silvertip on September 27, 2017, 09:27:02 PM
Total Time
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Last Chance on October 03, 2017, 03:12:44 PM
STAGE POINTS
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Back 40 on October 04, 2017, 08:43:29 AM
stage points   (I'm from Illinois, like they do in Chicago, vote early, vote often)
Title: Re: WBAS Scoring Poll
Post by: Happy Jack on October 04, 2017, 09:13:58 AM
After a discussion with the SASS BOD the decision has been made that local and State WBAS matches may score with EITHER Stage Points or Total Time.

Official Sanctioned matches at the Regional, Territorial, National or World Championship level with be scored by Stage Points.