Author Topic: What is the penalty and who gets it?  (Read 5201 times)

Goody

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
What is the penalty and who gets it?
« on: October 04, 2013, 09:03:06 PM »
OK, so in the Shooters handbook it says;

"9. Once a shooter stages their firearms on the firing line, no other person will touch
the firearms. The only exception is if the RO deems it necessary to prevent a
severe safety violation. (Any penalties would still apply.) The shooter shall be
the only person to move their firearms from the firing line to the unloading
table. Posse members shall be instructed not to touch or move any firearm from
where the shooter restaged them after completing the firing string with the
individual firearm."

No where does it say what the penalty will be, nor who gets the penalty. Logic tells me that the person who touched the other person's firearm would receive whatever penalty there may be. But another shooter who just went through the RO course swears  that he asked that exact question. He says he was told by the instructor that the shooter would receive a 10 second penalty if anyone else touched their gun(s). This certainly seems convoluted to me. If you wanted to ding someone with a penalty, just carry their rifle to the unloading table!

J. Frank Norfleet

  • IXL
  • WBAS Committee & Ambassadors
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 625
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2013, 09:53:42 PM »
Have you been talking to Silver Sam again?
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

Garrison Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 769
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2013, 10:09:11 PM »
Someone has mistaken the RO Handbook section:

Quote
Minor Safety Penalties
• Handing off a malfunctioning firearm.

with the other-person-moves-a-shooter's-gun situation.

By extrapolation from the penalty above,which would be incurred by the shooter - the penalty for moving another shooter's gun has to be a Minor Safety as well.   But, common sense tells you that for move-a-gun, the penalty goes to the person who moved the gun!   You sure cannot penalize the shooter for someone moving his gun - he may be 50 feet away at the time!

Perhaps this is the case of someone not paying attention during class, or the instructor being confused.  Either case, someone needs better instruction!

Good luck, GJ   
"Ride hard, shoot straight and speak the truth."   Col. J Cooper
Why else would you want to be here?

60708 Life/Regulator

Happy Jack

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • Wild Bunch Committee Chairman
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2013, 12:26:54 PM »
The actual correct answer to the question is:  NO-one gets an actual time penalty. The person moving the gun gets the policy explained to them clearly and are asked in a polite way to not do it again. This is one of those "rules" in SASS venues that has no actual penalty applied for violating it. (There are several in CAS)The committee has discussed this before and we really don't like a rule without a penalty, so we prefer to call it a "POLICY" not a rule. Therefore it does not appear in the "penalties" section of the Handbooks.
1911's RULE !!!

Goody

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2013, 10:41:50 PM »
Thanks Happy Jack, that should clear up any confusion.

And J Frank, yes! ;)

Wait A. Minute

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2013, 10:40:21 AM »
Thank You Happy Jack...
SASS #92384                  Live Simply, Care Deeply, Speak Kindly, Love Generously......         You never know how strong you are ,until being strong is the only choice you have......

Blackey Cole

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2014, 04:36:41 AM »
At EOT on the CAS side I needed assistance getting my long guns to the line from the loading table, I'm walking with a cane, and also from the line to the ul table.

Under the WBAS rules I can not have this assistance, is that correct?

Happy Jack

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • Wild Bunch Committee Chairman
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2014, 08:28:49 AM »
Blackie, yes, but you and a match official MUST examine the gun before it can be removed from the line by another.

I was answering what happens at the END of the Course of fire.

In the case of actually staging the firearms before becoming committed to the stage there is NO problem with getting assistance staging firearms. It happens all the time.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 02:28:25 PM by Happy Jack »
1911's RULE !!!

Wait A. Minute

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2014, 08:51:46 AM »
Thank you HJ for the clarification on this...
SASS #92384                  Live Simply, Care Deeply, Speak Kindly, Love Generously......         You never know how strong you are ,until being strong is the only choice you have......

J. Frank Norfleet

  • IXL
  • WBAS Committee & Ambassadors
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 625
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2014, 02:12:57 PM »
Happy Jack,
Would you re-read Blackey's question.  Your answer and his question don't quite jive.
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

Happy Jack

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • Wild Bunch Committee Chairman
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2014, 02:30:24 PM »
Modified my response to Blackey. It has never been a problem getting assistance TO the firing line, just a question about firearms after the COF is completed. See modified post above.
1911's RULE !!!

Blackey Cole

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2014, 05:52:56 PM »
HJ, once the TO and I clear the gun on the line it may go to the UL table by another currect?

Garrison Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 769
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2014, 06:08:50 PM »
Yes, your cleared guns can be taken to the unloading table by another shooter, when you need assistance.  Same as coming to the line. 

If the assistant finds a long gun with the action very close to being closed, he should call the TO over to take a look before moving the gun.

If at the loading table there is found to be a live round still in a long gun, the assistant will not be the one to be penalized (just as in Cowboy).  Just the shooter.

Good luck, GJ

"Ride hard, shoot straight and speak the truth."   Col. J Cooper
Why else would you want to be here?

60708 Life/Regulator

Blackey Cole

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2014, 06:13:46 PM »
That's fair but if we clear the guns on the line there should be no such pentalies at the ul table unless the assistant took a gun prior to it being cleared on the line by the shooter and TO.

Nellie Blue

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 333
    • Nellie Blue's Website
Re: What is the penalty and who gets it?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2014, 06:19:55 PM »
A simple solution and the one I used while shooting WB with a wrist problem....at the end of shooting....I would pick up the long guns and hand them to whoever was helping me.
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain.