Author Topic: Long guns staged flat  (Read 5695 times)

J. Frank Norfleet

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Long guns staged flat
« on: May 19, 2014, 09:32:52 PM »
The stage conventions state:

3. All staged guns shall have their barrels pointed safely down range. All long guns initially staged on a horizontal flat surface shall be staged lying flat where at least the rear of the trigger guard is on the staging area. All handguns initially staged on a horizontal flat surface must be staged with the entire handgun lying flat on the staging surface.

So is it legal for a shooter with a saddle ring carbine to carefully prop the the rifle up on the ring so the ring is holding the rifle up at an angle toward the shooter?
JFN
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Garrison Joe

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 10:54:39 PM »
Nope, not a hope in Hades that will get past a knowledgeable RO.   Flat on table means flat on table, not propped up on anything, not standing on edge balanced, not laying on top of staged ammo, no, no, just No.

Good luck, GJ
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Goody

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2014, 05:24:12 AM »
So I take it that unlike in SASS, there are no considerations given for shooters with handicaps?

Garrison Joe

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2014, 06:19:24 AM »
What is that comment from left field all about?  Is this a "have you quit kicking your dog yet" question?  Wow, this thread just took a crazy turn South!

Every shooter is eligible to get the accommodations that the posse marshal, with match director's consent when necessary, determines necessary to allow the shooter to safely shoot the match.  However, I've not run across any shooter yet who needed (or would be willing to accept the offer of) something other than standard long gun staging.

You will have to explain why staging a long gun propped up is a necessary accommodation for a particular shooter.  Otherwise, shooters all play by the same rules.

Good luck, GJ
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 07:44:50 AM by Garrison Joe »
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J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2014, 07:07:42 AM »
My understanding is that any shooter accommodations for handicaps have to be approved by the WBAS RO Committee, not posse marshals or match directors, monthly club matches excepted.
JFB
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 07:10:46 AM by J. Frank Norfleet »
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

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Garrison Joe

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 07:36:19 AM »
My understanding is that any shooter accommodations for handicaps have to be approved by the WBAS RO Committee, not posse marshals or match directors, monthly club matches excepted.
JFB

Think that is an unwieldy and impossible concept.  Not all such potential shooters will tell you before they show up that they might want some sort of accommodation.  Would be great if they did, but they may not.   Then, how long would it take to get a committee agreement on what the change is that you want to allow?  A week, say?  OK, let's tell the shooter at a Regional or National or International WB match they have to come back a week later and we'll let them shoot the match after we decide which accommodations they want to have will be allowed? Suuuuure... that will make everyone happy....

Here's the applicable WBAS Handbook statement from page 19:

Quote
Accommodations are always allowed for those unable to comply with specific
stage procedures due to physical limitations with no procedural penalties assessed.
Nothing there requires the WBAS Rules Committee to vet your decision before you put some accommodation in place for a physically limited shooter.   

Match Director is able to make accommodations that he believes are necessary, on the spot, at the match.  YOU want to be a major match director and turn away a qualified but wheelchair bound competitor who instead of shooting from a boardwalk, say, could be allowed to shoot from another location that allows the wheelchair to be operated?   If we are not reasonable, we are not doing our best to welcome folks with a physical challenges.

It's the MD's match to run fairly and be hospitable and welcoming (without giving away the farm).  You will be surprised how being reasonable when running the match will be appreciated by the shooter and his/her friends or family.

What is bringing all this on, pards?   

Good luck, GJ
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 07:46:52 AM by Garrison Joe »
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Goody

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2014, 08:02:35 AM »
My assumption is what brought this on was actions at the Texas State match this past weekend. In any event, that is what I am referencing. There is a local shooter who has extensive damage to his right forearm/thumb from a motorcycle wreck years ago. It is difficult for him to pick up the rifle from a flat point, so he props it up a little with the saddle ring. AFAIK there were no ill feelings about this, nor any words exchanged. I believe that J Frank is simply trying to get clarification on how to rule on this. When the initial question was asked/answered I felt as though there were salient points to cover that had not been addressed, hence my "from left field" comment.

Garrison Joe

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2014, 08:17:12 AM »
It's the MD's call whether the disability was such that the shooter was "unable to comply" with the standard staging instruction.  I trust the topic was discussed with the MD (or his effective delegate, the posse marshal) when someone first questioned the deviation from standard staging procedure.  If not, well, RO and spotters all missed the chance to make a P call for improper staging.

The line between "difficult" (as described above) and "unable to comply" (the burden of proof from the rule) is probably a pretty broad one.   I'll not venture a call on that either way, having not seen the shooter try to execute the standard staging instruction.

Good luck, GJ
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Happy Jack

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2014, 08:29:28 AM »
A few years ago the committee recieved a request from a shooter for an "allowance". We requested some further information and it was never recieved so the issue went away. It is up to the Match Director to make decisions concernning those types of issues unless the shooter has a "official allowance" from the governing body. (SASS). As to the example given here I would NOT make the allowance as the shooter could use the other hand to raise the rifle enough to grasp it properly, but that would be MY personal decision as the MD and others might make a different one.
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J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2014, 01:16:49 PM »
My assumption is what brought this on was actions at the Texas State match this past weekend. In any event, that is what I am referencing. There is a local shooter who has extensive damage to his right forearm/thumb from a motorcycle wreck years ago. It is difficult for him to pick up the rifle from a flat point, so he props it up a little with the saddle ring. AFAIK there were no ill feelings about this, nor any words exchanged. I believe that J Frank is simply trying to get clarification on how to rule on this. When the initial question was asked/answered I felt as though there were salient points to cover that had not been addressed, hence my "from left field" comment.

You are correct Goody.  After a match I think about things I saw and the questions begin.  I remembered seeing this and reflected on the time I allowed a shooter to stage a magazine on edge.  That's where I got read the flat rule.  So I wondered why set the rifle on the saddle ring?  Didn't intend to offend or point fingers at anyone, just wondered.  (Although I have enjoyed watching GJ get all worked up.)  And, I have learned about giving shooters with physical limitations an exception.  So this has been very informative for me which is why I ask these questions.  Since it didn't give that shooter an advantage, if I were MD I probably let him do it.  I have never shot a match where a shooter was wheel chair bound.  Don't shoot CAS and have never seen one in WBAS.  But I have wondered how that would work because I agree with everything that Garrison Joe said about accommodating shooters with handicaps.  So thank all of you for the input.
JFN

P.S. GJ, have you quit kicking your dog yet?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 01:18:40 PM by J. Frank Norfleet »
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

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Garrison Joe

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2014, 01:32:40 PM »

Maybe I shall quit kicking dogs when posters start providing the whole story in the first post.....
Guess that will never happen.    ;D
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J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 01:48:10 PM »

Maybe I shall quit kicking dogs when posters start providing the whole story in the first post.....
Guess that will never happen.    ;D

Of course not!  I was trying to ask a question without naming names or pointing fingers.
Looking forward to Saturday, Joe!
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

Garrison Joe

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 01:50:48 PM »
Shall I bring the dog?   
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Happy Jack

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2014, 02:18:48 PM »
J. Frank brings up a topic that I have never considered and I don't think the Committee will attemp to regulate. When a shooter "stages" magazines during a stage (maybe they don't have a good way to carry enough of them) We DON'T force magazines to be carried the same way as CAS requires reloads to be carried. We don't care HOW they stage them. I usually encourage them to stage them on edge with the bullets pointing up so they can retrieve them with a natural motion. But it is up to the shooter to stage them where and how they wish at this time.
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Goatneck

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Re: Long guns staged flat
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2014, 03:02:12 PM »

 Let me make refrerence to the issue J Frank addressed.  The shooter in question as described by Goody in fact does have extensive damage to his hand and arm.  Several years back the shooter approched me with his problem.  At that time he could not shoot WB because of his issue.
The WB Committee gave him special consideration.  He carriers a letter from his Doctor referencing his Handicapp.  The letter is used in the event he is questioned by Match officials. Now that shooter is shooting every WB Match around our area for the past number of years.  He is a big supporter of WB.

Goatneck