Author Topic: Please clarify  (Read 4774 times)

J. Frank Norfleet

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Please clarify
« on: May 19, 2014, 09:43:30 PM »
It is my understanding that the only malfunction that allows the shooter to insert a loaded magazine with the slide down is when the slide fails to lock after the last round is fired.  ALL other malfunctions whether shooter induced or ammo problems the shooter is required to lock the slide back before inserting a mag.  Have I missed something?

• All reloads shall be from slide lock, no “tactical reloads.” You may not reload the pistol with a round in the chamber. (MSV) You may NOT reload a single round in the 1911 by placing it in the chamber and then closing the slide. (MSV) All ammunition must be loaded from a magazine. All reloads shall be from slide lock. (Failure to do so, MSV) If after firing all the rounds in the magazine the slide lock fails and the shooter needs to reload without moving, one may do so without locking the slide back before inserting the new magazine. This is considered a malfunction. Safe reloads after any type of malfunction are legal.
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Garrison Joe

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 11:01:06 PM »
Yep.  AFAIK, you've missed the condition where a shooter has to, say, drop mag and rack slide to clear the gun because of a gun or ammo malfunction.  Slide is now forward on empty chamber.  Shooter may insert a mag, then rack slide.  That load is purely and simply as a result of (following after) a malfunction.  Shooter was not at the point where he would have had to do a reload, but to clear the malfunction, he cleared the gun.  Loading then, with chamber empty and slide forward, is not a tactical reload.   So, as I understand it, it would be allowed when the load is a part of recovery from the malfunction.   This is supported by last sentence of rulebook text you cited:

Quote
Safe reloads after any type of malfunction are legal.

That has recently been clarified, as I understand a recent discussion, as being after any GUN or AMMO malfunction.  It does not cover shooter mistakes (like dropping a mag before shooting last shot, which then ends up with slide forward on an empty chamber, but because it is OPERATOR error, not a malfunction, that does not allow shooter to just slam in another mag without first locking slide open).

Good luck, GJ
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 11:11:44 PM by Garrison Joe »
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J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2014, 07:35:07 AM »
The point is where was it clarified?  Here on the rules forum or in a personal conversation?  In my last discussion (not here) my understanding was as stated.  That is why I would like someone from the rules committee clarify it here so I don't make a bad call.
JFN
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Garrison Joe

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2014, 08:06:49 AM »
The point is where was it clarified?  Here on the rules forum or in a personal conversation?  In my last discussion (not here) my understanding was as stated.  That is why I would like someone from the rules committee clarify it here so I don't make a bad call.
JFN
We use the common, dictionary type definition of MALFUNCTION, since the rule book does not include malfunction in the list of terms in the glossary (Perhaps it should!)  That common meaning of MALFUNCTION does not include an operator error while running the gun.  So, while correcting an operator error, the rule that allows a slide-down reload is not in effect.  While recovering from a malfunction, that rule IS in effect. 

That's the way my simple mind understands it.

Good luck, GJ
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Happy Jack

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2014, 08:21:47 AM »
I agree with Joe, that the statement "safe reloads after any type of malfunction are legal" is intended to cover a consequence such as in his first example. The example given in the Handbook was to show that while you CANNOT move with the slide forward after a legitimate malfunction you may not be required to lock the slide open before inserting the new magazine in every circumstance. The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter when determining if it is a "safe reload after the malfunction".  Any time you write or change a statement in the rules it can have unintended consequences so I hope we will not need to make any changes.


Joe's second example is a classic example of "operator error" and not a malfunction so it does not allow for a reload except from slidelock.
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J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 01:46:45 PM »
Jack and Joe,
Thanks for the clarification.  I was laboring under a misinterpretation.  Last year I had a series of mag induced type III malfunctions at several matches including EOT.  When I stripped the partial mag out, the slide would chamber the offending round.  Was told that I couldn't reinsert the partial mag because that was a tactical reload (that definition is clear from previous discussions).  After I shot the chambered round I was told I had to lock the slide back to reload before I could insert a mag even though a malfunction had started the whole mess.  Until I identified where the problem was I had been told that the only malfunction allowed where a mag could be inserted slide down was a slide stop failure.

So Goody, you are correct that my call last weekend was a bad one and the shooter deserved a reshoot, which he got.  Again, that is why I ask these questions here.  I hate it when I make a bad call.
JFN
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Happy Jack

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2014, 02:10:34 PM »
J. Frank, In the case of your type III malfunction I can see 2 ways of dealing with it, #1 the way you did, firing the round,#2 running the slide to eject the round. (I think there would be less discussion if you had just ejected the round instead of firing it) In either case I would allow the inertion of another magazine as a "no call" with the slide forward since you were safely reloading after clearing a malfunction without changing location. Benefit of the doubt to the shooter.
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Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2014, 02:39:01 PM »
Boy.......... this will be fun............
All I have to say........
So we "back" to if there is indeed "some" kind of malfunction that inserting a magazine (obviously removed beforehand) a straight up "NO CALL".

This really needs to be made explicitly clear, one way or the other.... Just sayin.
 
   Now just for the record.

Once THAT particular malfunction is resolved, during the balance of the shooting the 1911 from that position, does it follow through? OR, just for that occurance..... ????????????

I will be saving the answer.......... IN PRINT. Just sayin.....

Thanks
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Happy Jack

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 09:44:49 AM »
J. Frank, an update to my earlier post:  The EXACT procedure to be allowed after your type III malfunction is being discussed. I posted my OPINION in the earlier post.

A FINAL DECISION on the legal way to deal with it will be forthcoming.  In the meantime, please EJECT the chambered round, don't fire it. Then proceed with the reload.  It may be after EOT when we can spend some serious time thinking about this one before an answer is provided.
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Goody

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2014, 01:29:43 PM »
In my opinion it would be much simpler and to the point to eliminate all the conditions that you may load with a slide forward. Just leave the first part of the statement in the rule book.

• All reloads shall be from slide lock, no “tactical reloads.” You may not reload the pistol with a round in the chamber. (MSV) You may NOT reload a single round in the 1911 by placing it in the chamber and then closing the slide. (MSV) All ammunition must be loaded from a magazine. All reloads shall be from slide lock. (Failure to do so, MSV) THE END!

No questions about how the slide got forward, no discussion about was that a malfunction or brain flatulence, no nothing. If the slide is forward and you insert a magazine once the course of fire with the pistol has begun, you bought the penalty.


J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2014, 01:47:42 PM »
J. Frank, an update to my earlier post:  The EXACT procedure to be allowed after your type III malfunction is being discussed. I posted my OPINION in the earlier post.

A FINAL DECISION on the legal way to deal with it will be forthcoming.  In the meantime, please EJECT the chambered round, don't fire it. Then proceed with the reload.  It may be after EOT when we can spend some serious time thinking about this one before an answer is provided.

Like I said I have solved the mag problem.  But the way I would handle it if it happens again.  1) Hit the mag release button and let the mag drop just enough to let the slide go to battery.  If it chambers the round, I will reseat the mag (which never left the pistol) and continue the course of fire.  2) If the round doesn't chamber or the mag not reseat, I will drop the mag and clear the pistol and insert a fresh mag with the slide down on an empty chamber. :)
JFN

PS this is the process I followed toward the end of my problems.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 01:52:46 PM by J. Frank Norfleet »
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Garrison Joe

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2014, 02:19:11 PM »
In my opinion it would be much simpler and to the point to eliminate all the conditions that you may load with a slide forward. Just leave the first part of the statement in the rule book.
...

No questions about how the slide got forward, no discussion about was that a malfunction or brain flatulence, no nothing. If the slide is forward and you insert a magazine once the course of fire with the pistol has begun, you bought the penalty.

Like the simplicity of that. 

However, the initial load at the loading table would violate that "reload" rule.
As would a shooter forgetting to insert a mag at the table.  That rule mod would require shooter to draw, discover no mag, slide lock, insert mag and then drop slide and shoot.   Maybe there could be that one exception which could be a "safe to insert magazine while slide is down" while at the firing line?

(The whole loading situation is just made complicated by not loading initially to condition 1.    Ouch, ouch, ouch, don't hit me again, I'm sorry I said that.   :o 8) )

Good luck, GJ

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Goody

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2014, 02:52:30 PM »
In my opinion it would be much simpler and to the point to eliminate all the conditions that you may load with a slide forward. Just leave the first part of the statement in the rule book.

• All reloads shall be from slide lock, no “tactical reloads.” You may not reload the pistol with a round in the chamber. (MSV) You may NOT reload a single round in the 1911 by placing it in the chamber and then closing the slide. (MSV) All ammunition must be loaded from a magazine. All reloads shall be from slide lock. (Failure to do so, MSV) THE END!

No questions about how the slide got forward, no discussion about was that a malfunction or brain flatulence, no nothing. If the slide is forward and you insert a magazine once the course of fire with the pistol has begun, you bought the penalty.

That is why I included the portion that I have bolded.

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 06:57:09 PM »
Wow guys!

I thought my understanding of what I was told last year was real simple, "The only malfunction where a loaded mag could be inserted was a failure of the slide stop to engage after the last round was fired."  All other reloads including an ammo problem meant the slide must be locked back before a magazine was inserted in the pistol.  My asking a shooter to lock back the slide (after having two rounds fail to chamber) was where all this discussion began.

I could also go for GJ's definition of a malfunction in post #2 and what HJ in post #3 that is simple too.

As for me clearing a type III and then firing the round in the chamber.  After firing that round, the malfunction is now clear and to insert a mag it must be at slide lock. 

As a safety issue I worry more about a shooter with weak or stiff hands struggling to lock a slide back than I do with a shooter inserting a loaded mag with the slide down.
JFN
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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Please clarify
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2014, 07:23:48 AM »
Heads up for everyone!  The WBAS RO Committee has met and at EOT it has been announced that we are back to where we were a year ago.  The only time you may insert a loaded magazine is if the slide stop fails to lock the slide back.   Any other malfunction you must lock the slide back before inserting the mag.  Now that is simple!

The new rule books will be up when Nellie Blue gets home from EOT.  I bet Happy Jack will enumerate the changes in this forum.
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein