Author Topic: Adding a 97 trench gun heat shield with bayonet lug to a take down 97 legal?  (Read 15968 times)

Blackey Cole

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Several years ago I ended up with a heat shield for a 97 trench gun with the bayonet lug and sling swivel.  I tried it on one 97 back then and the barrel was to large well today I was playing with it and slide it on my other 97. It went on most of the way it'll take some work to finish the installation if this was a solid frame I feel there would be no problems with the setup.  But since it is a takedown model and I'm I guessing none of the trench guns were take down models this might raise some eyebrows.

No to my question to the rules committee will mt 97 take down model with the 97 trench gun heat shield legal under WBAS rules?

Happy Jack

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Adding a heat shield to a shotgun that did NOT come from the factory with one would be an External Modification. That particular modification is NOT listed as allowable. Therefore it is ILLEGAL.
1911's RULE !!!

Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Adding a heat shield to a shotgun that did NOT come from the factory with one would be an External Modification. That particular modification is NOT listed as allowable. Therefore it is ILLEGAL.

There are original takedown model 97 trench guns.

For instance:

http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=10269448

http://www.icollector.com/U-S-Marked-Winchester-Model-1897-Trench-Configuration-Takedown-Slide-Action-Shotgun-with-Bayonet_i17062063

How are we, as ROs, to determine if a shotgun brought to the line with a heat shield came from the factory that way or not?

Consider someone who purchased the shotgun used....They may not even know the heat shield is original equipment or not. 

Seems like it would fit the description of replica, though.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 11:05:58 AM by Branchwater Jack - 88854 »

Blackey Cole

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HJ, is that your opinion or that of the rules committee?  After looking at the original photos I realize by barrel is to short got it to fit and still have enough room to take town then shotgun if I desired.  So I'm going to sell it as I had planned to originally.  But it appears to have come off an winchester not a norinco. 

Happy Jack

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I just post the rules as written. If I were to post an opinion I would clearly state it as such. In the past I have made it clear that the Committee would have to discuss a question before stating the final decision.
1911's RULE !!!

Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Winchester 1897 pump in 12 gauge, original or replica—Civilian or Military style.

Handbook page 10
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 03:06:47 PM by Branchwater Jack - 88854 »

Blackey Cole

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So if the rules state civilian or military style why is a civilian converted to military illegal?

Happy Jack

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I'm not here to argue the rules with our members. Arguments only lead to hard feelings and negative outcomes. The rule allows "reproductions". Many of us have the reproductions that were produced in China over the years. They are no longer legal for importation. Original "military style" 1897 shotguns are rare and expensive. Very, very few are used in WBAS competition. Making a "military style" 1897 from a normal civilian style 1897 is NOT listed as an allowable external modification. Therefore adding a heat shield to a civilian 1897 is not allowed. Original military 1897's have special markings on the receivers that are not present on the chinese reproductions but that lack of correct marking was not considered to be sufficient to disallow them as legal "reproductions". Many modern reproductions of early firearms do not have the correct markings. I hope this clears up the questions concerning the rule about "reproductions".

We are NOT going to check every shotgun at a match for authenticity. The Chinese reproductions are quite easy to tell from early Winchester originals. We would hope our shooters are honest enough to not use an illegal firearm. The use of illegal equipment is a MDQ for scoring purposes.
1911's RULE !!!

Blackey Cole

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Finally I got an explanation.  But I'll never agree with it 100% since I'm personally having problems with the proper heat shield ie one that came off a 97 to begin with being put on another 97 for this game but I will oblige you on it so I guess I got stuck with this part.  If it's legal on one gun I don't see what makes it illegal on another gun of the same basic type. With All the things that are allowed to the 1911s that make them far from the basic gun of the day.   I guess now that model 12 s are legal and available the 97 will be a smaller part of the game.  Remember that is what this is. 

Wild Bodie Tom

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Blackie, as a 1911 gunsmith, I will add a comment or 5. No offence on you either, just a couple things to say.

The Traditional class mods are kept to a bare minimum to allow those who wish to maintain the belief of using a 1911 as close to as issued to be just that. You may shoot it in that category and certainly nothing to stop you in shooting it two handed in Modern as well. That does not equate backwards by being able to use a Modern gun in Traditional however. Please remember, that back when, shall we say. That to get people involved in this, PERHAPS, the allowance of certain modifications may, or may not should not of occured. Jet forward a year or two from then. The cat was already out of the bag so to speak.... So ya would have a real issue backing up at the risk of losing shooters perhaps that joined in for many reasons. I have an opinion on all that, as I am absolutely positive everyone else does as well. The fact remains, if you open a door you will let in something. So, where it is at this time, you must commend the committee that set the rules to properly maintain them. Anyone that knows me and what my main Modern gun is, knows I run right up against the rules. However, I do not, and will not break them. Rest assured however, I can run with the pack with a basic stock gun just as well..... Some of seen that happen.
   So we have the best of both worlds in the fact that we can choose to be "racey" or tradtional.... I think that is a pretty good thing. Just sayin. Please do not take offense on the issue of the heat shield. Honestly, unless ya pointed out, nobody would even care. We enjoy the shooting so much, who cares. We do not have a tech inspection at the matches anyway. UNLESS someone complains, I have never had the oppotunity to call anyone anyway.
Hope this helps.

Thanks

Bodie
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Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Tom is spot on.

95% of the TOs wouldn't have a clue if you made a replica trench gun.  Additionally, they wouldn't know that you can buy a chineese made replica and shoot that, but not one you made yourself. Nor, would I expect, that they really cared that you created the replica trench gun.

Let's go shoot and have some fun!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 03:21:18 PM by Branchwater Jack - 88854 »

Lone Dog

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HJ, your statement that Chinese trench guns are now illegal for import is the first time I have heard that. Would you please advise where you came on that? I thought the Chinese had just stopped making any 97s at this time. Seems the 870 et al clones are much bigger sellers, much easier to make and much more profitable.

I know POTUS has banned Russian arms imports but I have sure not heard of any recent ban on any Chinese products.
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Blackey Cole

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BJ, while the To might not care I guess that HJ does.  I tried selling the part here and they deleted it twice.  The HJ finally conceded that if I was to put a disclaimer that the part could only be used to restore an existing trench gun but not to build a new one at that point I decided it wasn't worth it.  I also decided to vote with my wallet and refrain from shooting any WBAS match because of the stringent rule interpretations by the committee.  I can not see the difference between a trench gun from Winchester or norinco  and one that uses the same parts by a gunsmith or shooter. 

J. Frank Norfleet

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I also decided to vote with my wallet and refrain from shooting any WBAS match because of the stringent rule interpretations by the committee.

Amazing!!!!!
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

Blackey Cole

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Amazing!!!!!

What so amazing? That I'm doing it or that I'm say why I'm doing it?