Author Topic: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"  (Read 3961 times)

danawr

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Hello,

On page 11 of the Wild Bunch Action Shooting Handbook, Version 7.0, June 2014 there is the phrase :

"Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)"

If a course of fire requires the long gun to have only a single string of fire can a shooter place an overloaded long gun down with the "hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed" and the non-fired overloaded rounds in the magazine?

Does the order of when the long gun is fired, i.e. first gun, middle gun or last gun have any effect?

Thank you,

Deputy Dan

Blackey Cole

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2014, 02:46:50 PM »
iirc the penally for an over loaded gun was removed a few years back if it ever applied to wbas in the first place.
you have to you lay the gun down at the unloading table to clear it as long as it is action open or closed on a spent round.  if you pick it up work the action and the first thing out is a loaded round you earned a dq.

Happy Jack

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2014, 05:34:16 PM »
It is a Minor Safety Violation.  SHB page 11 and penalty overview page 19

There is no penalty for overloading a long gun but it must be empty of live ammunition in order to leave the shooters hands during the course of fire.

Note, IF it is the last gun used and you can figure out how to keep it in your hand with the action open or closed on a fired round with the muzzle safely downrange while clearing your 1911 and can make it to the ULT safely and clear it before it leaves your hand it would be a NO CALL. Once it leaves your hand it is a MSV if not empty of live ammunition.
1911's RULE !!!

danawr

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2014, 10:18:02 PM »
Thank you for your answers.

Does the answer change if the Course of Fire requires two strings of fire for the long gun with an intervening gun used between the strings of fire? To simplify it a bit assume the long gun is loaded only with enough rounds to complete both strings.

Also, I am not sure if I should post a new topic for the following questions.

My quote from page 11 of the SHB seems to directly conflict with the penalty overview for Minor Safety Penalties found on page 19:

Page 11 : Safe to Leave a Shooter's Hands - "Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)"

Page 19 : Minor Safety Violation - "Not leaving a long gun action open at the end of the shooting string or before the next firearm is fired"
Page 19 : Minor Safety Violation - "Leaving live rounds in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded"

The page 11 quote specifically states the action can be closed.
The page 11 quote does not say what the status of the magazine needs to be. I.E. empty or loaded. To me that implies it is the shooter's choice.

I believe the page 19 rules clearly contradict the rules on page 11.

Which rules take precedence and why?

Thank you,

Deputy Dan

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2014, 10:53:53 PM »
I think the rule you are struggling with was intended for splitting a string in a long gun.  Split strings are highly discouraged and although the rule you quoted seems to allow it, I have never seen a stage that called for it.  Splitting the rifle or the shotgun is a safety trap.  It would be difficult for shooters to stage a long gun with the action closed on an empty since we work so hard making sure the action is open when the long gun leaves our hands.

So ignore that rule completely ["Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)"].  Just make sure when a long gun leaves your hands it is open and empty of live rounds.
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

Happy Jack

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2014, 10:57:47 AM »
JFN has touched on the question. I didn't delve completely into it as I only answered your first inquiry. The rule on page 11 is there as a SPECIFIC exception to the open and empty of live ammunition rule ONLY when a split suquence is required during the stage. They used to somewhat common but aren't anymore. As JFN mentioned that are basically a penalty trap and are HIGHLY discouraged in WBAS. I have never seen one at a Sanctioned match but local clubs sometimes do strange things and a rule must be in place if a course of fire actually requires a split rifle or SG engagement. In the WBAS MD guide we STRONGLY encourage stage writers to state in the stage description that IF there is a split engagement that the shooter can only load the number of rounds required for the initial portion at the loading table. That decreases the likelyhood that a long gun will be restaged for further use while still containing live rounds.
1911's RULE !!!

Wait A. Minute

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2014, 11:22:57 AM »
Thank You for the clarification, HJ...
SASS #92384                  Live Simply, Care Deeply, Speak Kindly, Love Generously......         You never know how strong you are ,until being strong is the only choice you have......

danawr

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2014, 11:43:19 AM »
Thank you for the information.  I am getting a better sense of the original intent and current status of these rules.

I will be passing this thread onto our local Match Director.  We may need to change our current stage design ideas given the information you have provided.

Is there a "ROII" type class specifically for Wild Bunch?

Deputy Dan


Nawlins Kid

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2014, 12:04:53 PM »
Thank you for the information.  I am getting a better sense of the original intent and current status of these rules.

I will be passing this thread onto our local Match Director.  We may need to change our current stage design ideas given the information you have provided.

Is there a "ROII" type class specifically for Wild Bunch?

Deputy Dan

Where are you located? The Ambassadors teach the WB RO class.

Nawlins

danawr

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2014, 01:45:41 PM »
I live in San Carlos, California. I shoot Wild Bunch with the Sunnyvale Regulators and the Coyote Valley Cowboys.

I took the Wild Bunch class about a year ago and have been shooting it on a monthly basis since then. I am just starting to take on Timer Operator duties.

I find that reading and understanding the rules from a shooter's perspective is quite a bit different than a Timer Operator's viewpoint.

If a ROII class for Wild Bunch is not offered I will gladly take a refresher Wild Bunch course.

Who do I contact in my area about a Wild Bunch class schedule?

Thank you,

Deputy Dan

Happy Jack

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2014, 02:30:20 PM »
Danawr, Sutter Lawman is the Ambassador for your area. He handles the WBAS RO classes for your area.

[email protected]
1911's RULE !!!

danawr

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2014, 03:58:10 PM »
I have sent him an email requesting class schedules.

Thank you.

Dana

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Clarification of phrase involved with "Safe to leave the shooters hand"
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2014, 06:56:08 PM »
danawr,
Going through the class again and reading the rule book is necessary.  Still, I learn more from the discussions like this and from the bad calls I have made as TO.  My mistakes really seem to make a rule clear.

Even this discussion reminded me of a call I made as TO in a monthly match last spring.  Shooter overloaded his rifle and had a live round on the carrier when he arrived at the unload table.  I assessed him a MSV and the counters and posse rose up in revolt telling me the rifle was the last gun fired.  I argued he had set the rifle down to clear his pistol but was overruled.  But what does HJ's note in his first post say?  "Note, IF it is the last gun used and you can figure out how to keep it in your hand with the action open or closed on a fired round with the muzzle safely downrange while clearing your 1911 and can make it to the ULT safely and clear it before it leaves your hand it would be a NO CALL. Once it leaves your hand it is a MSV if not empty of live ammunition."  I won't give in next time.

So keep on asking rule questions.  It helps us all.
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein