Author Topic: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?  (Read 6741 times)

PapaGrande

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2014, 07:49:56 PM »
After creating this thread and taking part in its discussion, doing the same over at the SASS Wire (http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=227400), doing some additional reading, talking to a few more people in person and spending some time digesting all the information I have reached this conclusion:

There are no real safety/technical/historical issues that preclude WBers from taking part in a SASS match.  The safety/technical items that were offered as reasons for not allowing WBers to shoot SASS matches are such non-issues or so easily overcome that I personally view them as excuses.  Empirical proof and logic simply doesn't allow for another conclusion.  As others have pointed out it's all about "politics" and bigotry.

For the record I also learned that quite a few SASS clubs DO INDEED allow WBers to take part in their matches.  It was very nice to make that discovery!

The resistance to allowing WBers to take part in SASS matches by some SASS groups stems from a manifold of reasons.  I think the most important reason is the culture of many SASS groups.  For many, assuming their western persona for a day or weekend, engaging in fellowship with their friends and simply getting away and taking part in the shoot are the primary reasons they attend SASS events.  These reasons are far more important to them than competition, marksmanship, historical accuracy, etc., etc. which may (or may not) be of greater interest to a given WBer.  There's nothing necessarily wrong with that  -- it's largely those qualities that make SASS a success.  It's just the way it is.

I think difficult, even boorish behavior by some SASSers (far less common in real life than on the SASS Wire) is spawned by their desire to "keep things just as they are" because they personally conclude (even if they may not realize it) that doing so is the best way to maintain the enjoyment they currently derive from taking part in SASS events.  I think SASS tolerates and even encourages such behavior to a degree because it's quite literally "good for business" -- at least for now. 

Clearly some individual SASS groups have wider/clearer views of this and other issues and when combined with some empirical proof they realize that there are no safety/technical/historical issues that preclude WBers from taking part in a SASS match so they allow it.  Good for them!  I wish I lived near such a SASS group!

Thanks to everyone participating in the two threads.  It was quite educational for me.


John Boy

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2014, 09:58:40 PM »
PG - Cowboy Action and Wild Bunch are 2 different shooting sports with 2 different Handbook regulations.  Accept each as a stand alone - shoot one or the other or both and forget about any integration.  Okie Dokie?  :)
Regards
John Boy

PapaGrande

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2014, 01:25:56 AM »
PG - Cowboy Action and Wild Bunch are 2 different shooting sports with 2 different Handbook regulations.  Accept each as a stand alone - shoot one or the other or both and forget about any integration.  Okie Dokie?   

Nope.  There are no real safety/technical/historical issues that preclude WBers from taking part in a SASS match.  There are very real political issues with some SASS groups I have learned.

Your comment about "2 different shooting sports with 2 different Handbook regulations" is an excuse, not a reason.

Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2014, 05:47:07 AM »
We shoot a mid month match where we shoot Wild Bunch.

Cowboys can shoot that day, too.

They all shoot in the same bays.

However, they shoot different scenarios and are all scored separately.

Usually they run on separate posses too

This helps bring in more money for the club as a WB only match wouldn't bring it in

Garrison Joe

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2014, 06:42:54 AM »
PG -

There really is a major technical and safety reason that folks in the cowboy game don't encourage Wild Bunch style shooting at their matches - it's that shooting a 1911 and a fully-stoked hammerless pump shotgun takes extra rules that the cowboy handbooks don't cover, and extra training for shooters, TOs and other safety officers.   The cowboy folks know that getting the extra rules in place past the existing Territorial Governors group and the Wild Bunch leadership would be a tough job, and getting enough of the cowboy safety officer community trained would be even more work.   Some have safety concerns that they would not understand coaching shooters through solutions to jammed guns.   Some have a strong aversion to any semi-auto pistol. 

Requiring that they open up cowboy matches to WB shooting is the ultimate in selfishness.   Standing up a separate but equal WB structure is a hard exercise, but it has been pretty well done, and I heartily salute all our WB folks who have worked for 5 years to make happen what we have now.   They have been: Not tossing out excuses, not dodging issues, not sticking their heads in the sand.  But making proactive, positive progress toward one more great shooting venue. 

Sorry that does not satisfy you.   Sorry that you have felt the need to stir the pot in both forums.   Sorry you could not hear what several of us have said about this, and that you want to slam anyone who disagrees with you.

But I am sorry the most that you feel the need or "privilege" to post rudely in reply to one of our dearest ladies in the game, who works very hard moderating both forums, and has a tremendous history here of helping hundreds of folks.   

 :(

Allie Mo - thanks go to you for your great reservoir of patience!

Good bye.  GJ
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 08:03:14 AM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Allie Mo

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2014, 08:29:41 AM »
...
 :(

Allie Mo - thanks go to you for your great reservoir of patience!

Good bye.  GJ

Well the reservoir is empty.  :o
"If you would know a man, observe how he treats a cat." - Robert A. Heinlein

Wait A. Minute

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2014, 12:27:59 PM »
Thank You Dusty...
SASS #92384                  Live Simply, Care Deeply, Speak Kindly, Love Generously......         You never know how strong you are ,until being strong is the only choice you have......

Happy Jack

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2014, 03:15:32 PM »
I will let this go for awhile  IF  it gets back on topic.  Otherwise I think it has run its course.

We will NOT tolerate the type of uncivil discourse that goes on on the SASS wire.

All involved think about what you are about to say before furthering this thread. I have no problem with the area of discussion about WBAS and CAS matches being together or not, but that is the topic under discussion. NOT who might be posting.
1911's RULE !!!

Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2014, 06:00:32 AM »
I also have to believe that the geographical differences have allowed WB to grow differently in different areas.

While I have not traveled way far out west, you can see video and hear folks talk about how different stages and steel placement is out there.

Out over here where I am, we do set up some additional SG targets, plate racks, and will shoot the pistol at the rifle targets, but for the most part, we have not pushed back the steel for WB as much as I have seen done in other parts of the country, nor has target size shrunk down.

The cowboy game has grown into a speed first type of shoot with bigger and closer targets now being the majority.  And it continues to work as a good, winning formula.  Just look at the resurgence of EOT the past couple of years!

Folks shooting the cowboy game understandably would not want this winning formula for target placement and stage design changed to the prevailing WB formula.  And I can understand why.



The other issue that I see is that many cowboy shooters have 'retired' from the run and gun of IPSC, IDPA, and the like to the greener pastures of CAS.

These shooters wanted to get away from the 'arms race' that many of these disciplines have moved towards.  And while a good '73 rifle with action job costs less than $2k, it is still less than a tricked out 1911.

They like what they moved to and would hate to let anything in that would effectively put them back into the same situation they previously left.



And that gets back to not wanting to shoot the same match with autos when everyone else is shooting wheel guns.

A well run 1911 with a stoked shotgun shooting the same stage as a cowboy is probably going to win 9 out of 10 times.  Which is why, when we do allow cowboys to shoot at the same match time as our WB match, they are actually shooting different scenarios and are all scored completely separate in two different matches.  They is no comparison between the two.

Because they are two different games, with different rules, and different match and stage design ideologies.


I enjoy shooting both WB and cowboy. They both have their formula that the directors are trying to use to promote each sport. We'll see how each one develops in the future, but I do not see either formula changing enough that they would end up meeting in the middle.

Nellie Blue

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Re: Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2014, 09:33:33 AM »
I'd like to remind everyone we are on the Wild Bunch Wire where we calmly discuss issues. I've locked this post down. How about everyone take a step back....take a few deep breaths...and let this dead horse die a peaceful death.  Thank you.

Note: All off-topic comments and responses to those off-topic comments have been removed from the above thread.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 11:35:08 AM by Nellie Blue »
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain.