Author Topic: Shooting extra rounds  (Read 3484 times)

Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Shooting extra rounds
« on: September 20, 2014, 04:05:36 PM »
So, shooter is supposed to shoot the pistol.

Has a hickup and ends up ejecting 2 rounds during his string.

Slaps in another mag and fires those two required rounds.

Now, he has one in the chamber and 2 in the mag and another gun to shoot

Shooter decides to put those three rounds down range, either into the berm or on a target.

Would it be appropriate to call a Procedural for "Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by the stage description" in this case? Shooter fired more rounds than the stage instructions.

If the pistol was the last gun fired, what is the recorded time?  The last round shot or backing up the tomer to the last shot engaging the target?

John Boy

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2014, 08:32:46 PM »
Quote
If the pistol was the last gun fired, what is the recorded time?
Sounds like the handgun is the last firearm shot of the scenario.

Why dump the rounds?
If it was me - drop the magazine with the 2 rounds - eject the round in the chamber with the slide in a locked position - stage it.  Then under the direction of the TO checked clear and made safe, then holster
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John Boy

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2014, 05:15:17 AM »
Everything is answered here in this quote from page 25 of the WBAS Shooters Handbook

15.The penalty for using “illegally acquired” ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) or overloaded rounds that are fired will be a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo will be scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time.

A Procedural (10 seconds) for firing the ammo, 5 seconds for each target hit and time is from the last round fired.
JFN
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Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2014, 05:45:27 AM »
JFN,

I had not encountered a shooter doing this before yesterday, and it led to a lot of discussion.

A couple follow up questions...

If the shooter put the extra rounds into the berm, are they also scored as misses?

And, doesn't this also allow for a shooter, who let's say misses ever target with his other rounds, to end up with more misses than targets identified in the stage instructions?

Garrison Joe

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2014, 07:08:31 AM »
The rules are unfortunately not written well in this area.  As they stand, illegal rounds fired are counted as misses only if they are hits on the correct target type. 

It would be MUCH simpler if the rules just said - "All illegal rounds fired are counted as misses."
 (unless some more severe penalty is earned such as hitting a non-expendable prop or hitting close to an individual).  This would be in addition to the P for firing illegal ammo.

As it is, the rules have a loophole that allows extra ammo to be dumped safely down range as long as you are not hitting the correct type of target.

Good luck, GJ
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J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2014, 09:57:14 AM »
JFN,

I had not encountered a shooter doing this before yesterday, and it led to a lot of discussion.

A couple follow up questions...

If the shooter put the extra rounds into the berm, are they also scored as misses?

Not by the rules

And, doesn't this also allow for a shooter, who let's say misses ever target with his other rounds, to end up with more misses than targets identified in the stage instructions?

Yes

GJ,
They still get a 10 second procedural and the added time, not much of a loophole.
JFN
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 09:59:27 AM by J. Frank Norfleet »
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

Mink Shoals Bandit

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2014, 05:45:20 PM »
Seems like this was discussed a few years ago and the ruling was a "P" plus time spent. No other penalties or misses since the rounds were not part of the scenario.

Mink Shoals Bandit

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2014, 05:55:59 PM »
Found it......




Happy Jack
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Re: What's the call ?

« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2011, 12:08:00 PM »

Quote
 

As PC said, the best thing is to stop the shooter before they fire the extra rounds, but that didn't happen. The problem occurs if the extra rounds are fired in the middle of the stage instead of at the end. This problem came up when we wrote the "illegally acquired ammunition" rule. While it is certainly "kinder" to the shooter to take the time off used when firing the extra rounds, it is clearly unfair to do it differently if they were fired at the end of the stage as opposed to during the middle of the stage. One shooter fires extra rounds in the middle of the stage, their total time stands, another fires extra rounds at the end, their time is "adjusted down" clearly UNFAIR. That is why the time is not adjusted for the "illegally acquired" ammunition rule. The total time recorded for ALL rounds fired is used and then the 10 second "P" time is added on top of that. The correct call is clearly a Procedural for failing to follow stage instructions. The shooter cannot be charged with MORE misses than there were targets so whether the last 5 rounds struck ANY targets or not is a mute point. In a CAS match the total time for ALL rounds fired plus 10 seconds would be the stage time recorded. The Committee will have to discuss this a bit further.





Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 01:34:17 PM »
GJ,
They still get a 10 second procedural and the added time, not much of a loophole.
JFN


JFN,

I hear what you are saying, but I tend to want to agree with GJ here. The combination of the overload rule and the illegal ammo rule into one rule created a weird situation where we are ignoring another part of the rules.

The rule quoted states that "Any targets hit using that ammo will be scored as MISSES."

The targets have already been engaged by one of the previous bullets shot before we hit the overload mark. All the targets have already been scored as hits or misses.

If it is true that overloaded bullets that hit a target are scored as misses in addition to what has already been scored, then it must also be true that those overloaded rounds shot into the berm must be scored as misses because a five second penalty must be assessed for "Each missed target. (Shooters handbook, page 19)".  Those extra bullets sent down range did not hit a target.

Furthermore, it makes no sense to penalize two shooters differently for the same action (shooting off overloaded bullets) solely based on the location of impact of the bullet - all things else being equal.

A round that hits the berm when all the targets have been engaged meets the definition of a bullet that missed a target the same way that an illegally acquired bullet that hits a target that has already been engaged meets the definition of hitting a target.

In other words....

If an already engaged and out of play target is hittable with overloaded bullets, why it not also missable?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 01:42:45 PM by Branchwater Jack - 88854 »

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 03:51:30 PM »
MS & BJ,
There is little point in debating this.  That is what the rule says and that was how I was told to score it at a match this summer.  We will have to wait until Happy Jack gives the definitive word.

I could have it all wrong, I know I have been wrong at least once today and maybe twice!
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

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Happy Jack

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 08:40:14 AM »
JFN has posted the rule. It is clear. It is also in agreement with the rule in CAS. There are no plans to change or reword the existing rule.
 Overloaded rounds that are fired are treated as Illegal Ammunition".  As has been recommended before IF you have extra rounds in a firearm after the shooting string is completed, completely clear the firearm before it leaves your hand. If you DO decide to fire them try NOT to hit a correct type target. Fire them safely downrange into the berm,etc. and accept the penalty.
1911's RULE !!!

vaquero

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 11:19:54 AM »
I asked the same question, several months ago, the answer is no, extra rounds can not be fired into the berm, without getting a penalty.   Simple as that.

Wait A. Minute

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 03:15:58 PM »
Thank You JFN and HJ for the clarification...   
SASS #92384                  Live Simply, Care Deeply, Speak Kindly, Love Generously......         You never know how strong you are ,until being strong is the only choice you have......

Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 05:02:11 PM »
Yes, thank you all

It gets back to 90% of your calls are usually from 10% of the rulebook

But when one is from the other 10%, we need to get it right.

Happy Jack, just to clarify, you said, "If you DO decide to fire them try NOT to hit a correct type target."  But the rule states "Any targets hit using that ammo will be scored as MISSES."  Emphasis on "Any target"

Is target type a deciding factor when assessing misses in this case, or is it, by literal onterpretation of the rule, any target hit.

Happy Jack

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Re: Shooting extra rounds
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2014, 10:13:42 AM »
Branchwater, my mistake.  ANY target hit is a miss. I was typing fast and thinking about the procedural rule, but as soon as the round is fired the one procedural per stage has already occurred. 
1911's RULE !!!