Author Topic: Model '12  (Read 5897 times)

Allie Mo

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 04:34:10 PM »
Tully,

I just don't remember...

Seems I'm always getting into position to pick brass or getting ready to shoot.

I know that, if you are my TO, you won't do a "gotcha" like the TO in Boggus' post.

 :D

Allie
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Silvertip

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 05:14:11 PM »
OH Oh Tulley shooting a model 12,as if he was not the fastest
Shotgun around already
See you next time
Silvertip

Allie Mo

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2014, 11:52:00 AM »
OH Oh Tulley shooting a model 12,as if he was not the fastest
Shotgun around already
See you next time
Silvertip
Tully is an awesome shooter and person!
"If you would know a man, observe how he treats a cat." - Robert A. Heinlein

Silvertip

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2014, 12:06:32 PM »
That is true
ST

John Boy

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2014, 08:36:06 PM »
re: Model 12 ... How often, if any, has your Loading Officer(s) watched & insured that you put internal hammer down before loading and leaving to go to the line?  The next time may be my first!
And I believe this occurs because the majority of the shotguns used for WB are '97's
Regards
John Boy

Boggus Deal

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2014, 07:50:22 AM »
John Boy, that is all well and good that someone is watching at the LT but the critical part is at the firing line. Declaring it on the line and showing it is what matters.

Happy Jack

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2014, 11:04:17 AM »
The majority of WBAS matches I attend we don't have a LT Officer.
1911's RULE !!!

Goody

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2014, 01:49:09 PM »
Boggus, your right but old habits are lasting ... I shot pumps from the age of 10 and the safety always went on before loading my Ithaca 37's after pulling the trigger

I may be crazy (it's never been documented!), but I think my model 12's cycle better if I hold the trigger down while closing the action. All 4 of mine are stock, in that no safeties have been removed. So when cycling the action for the first shot on the line you have to remember to have forward pressure on the slidefirst, then the action will cycle. When I hold the trigger while closing the action at the loading table this condition goes away. Am I nuts?

Boggus Deal

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2014, 02:35:30 PM »
To quote Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory, "I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested." I personally prefer to hold the trigger back as I close the gun. Then, I feel to make sure the action slide is free. 

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2014, 06:22:08 PM »
It makes no difference in cycling my M12 whether I hold the trigger down while cycling the action or if I close the action and pull the trigger.  I prefer to close the action and then pull the trigger hearing the hammer drop.  Otherwise I do the OCD thing of repeatedly checking the trigger while standing at the load table to make sure it is really down.
JFN
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John Boy

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2014, 06:22:46 PM »
Quote
Declaring it on the line and showing it is what matters.
Boggus - I agree 100% ... showing is what does matter
If I may - let's discuss the how between a Model 1897 and Model 12:
This rule book requirements really is applicable to '97's that have an external & visible hammer that can be either placed on the safety setting or hammer down - of course both positions on an empty chamber - that the TO or an astute RO can identify too
Quote
Page 12, Jul 2014 Handbook

RANGE OPERATIONS
• Loaded shotguns must be staged with the muzzle downrange, the action closed,
the chamber empty, and the hammer either on the safety notch or fully down.
(Failure to comply, SDQ

As for the Model 12's, the RO Committee made the decision for assurance that the internal hammer is down accordingly:
Quote
• Shooters using the Model ‘12 shotgun must follow this additional safety
procedure:
Under the direct supervision of the TO/CRO on the firing line they must point the muzzle
in a safe direction and pull the trigger. If the hammer falls, SDQ. Failure to follow this
procedure is a SDQ. It is the shooter’s responsibility to ensure this procedure is followed
before beginning the course of fire

I support a much safer way for discussion by the Committee to determine that the Model 12  internal hammer is down on an empty chamber:
* At the loading table, with an open action, show the LO that the chamber is empty
* Rack the forearm forward
* Set the external (visable) trigger lock to the safe position ... the pin physically blocks the trigger precluding that the firing pin can be put into battery
* Then load the magazine tube
* At the line, the shooter points the muzzle in a downward safe position
* Moves the trigger lock pin off safety to the fire position
* Pulls the trigger
* The TO hears an audible noise of the hammer dropping that is positive proof that that hammer is down

The deficiency with the current procedure is: with a light trigger finger push and a heavy trigger pull ... and no audible sound ... there is no assurance that the Model 12 hammer is down!

Think about it, the model 12 has an external visible trigger lock - and is currently no being used to show and determine with an audible sound that the hammer is down at the line before staging the shotgun and course of fire
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 06:25:26 PM by John Boy »
Regards
John Boy

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2014, 09:00:14 PM »
John Boy,
What we have now is about as simple as it is gonna get.  Why complicate it?
Try racking the slide on a M12 that the trigger hasn't been pulled on.  Mine won't open unless I pull the trigger or hit the slide release button.  There is no deficiency in the current protocol. 
BTW we have a safety on our 1911 we don't use either.
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

Tully Mars

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Re: Model '12
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2014, 07:15:40 AM »
Most current consistent model 12 user' s are accustomed to the firing line procedures and for the most part remind the TO that they are shooting a M12. This process took a long time to instill in shooters, TO's and spotters. Heck we are still working on it. It's the main reason I shoot a 97', so I don't have one more thing to think about.

By reversing the procedure to a hammer click being heard from no hammer click being heard will set people up for failure. And as HJ said most WB matches do not have a loading table officer to double check loading of the M12.

Tully

P.S.
Allie and ST, thanks for the kind words.