Author Topic: Current Rules Governing Re-Staging Pistol  (Read 2995 times)

Abe E.S. Corpus

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Current Rules Governing Re-Staging Pistol
« on: November 30, 2014, 02:20:27 PM »
This was discussed on this Forum about a year ago; some of the comments indicated that there was an error in the Handbook which would be corrected in the next round of revisions.

Rather than tracking through the superceded Handbook and the Forum discussions I am asking my question in reference to the Handbook v. 7.1 and the WB RO Manual v. 7.1 (both revised August 2014).

Both documents make clear that although restaging an empty pistol with the slide forward is a SDQ, the shooter can "cure" the problem before firing the next gun.

My first question is in regards to restaging a pistol with a loaded magazine inserted (assume that the pistol is at slide lock): can the shooter correct this condition?  The Handbook and the Manual show the penalty as a SDQ without the parenthetical statement about correcting the problem, however, the Wild Bunch Pocket RO Card (part of the RO Manual) shows "closed slide" and "loaded magazine" as SDQ conditions that the shooter can correct before firing the next gun.  There is a mark in the margin beside this part of the document suggesting that it was changed from the prior version.  Perhaps this was overlooked in the editing process but it seems that there is a conflict between the RO Pocket Card and the language of the text of the RO Manual and the Handbook.

The second question comes from a situation that happened at my local match today.  The shooter experienced a malfunction on the last round to be fired from the pistol. There was a failure to feed malfunction that left the nose of the bullet in the roof of the chamber, the rim still held by the magazine.  The shooter thought the gun was empty and at slide lock, and laid it on the prop.  Once the gun left the shooter's hand, it was either a SDQ for leaving the shooter's hand with a round in the chamber, or a SDQ for leaving the shooter's hand with a loaded magazine.  My thought is that a "chambered" round is one that is fully chambered, so having a portion of the cartridge in the chamber did not meet the definition.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 09:02:11 PM by Abe E.S. Corpus »

Garrison Joe

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Re: Current Rules Governing Re-Staging Pistol
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2014, 05:00:58 PM »
Per your second question.

You have pulled out two references that are specific SDQ penalties.   There are more.  The general pistol restaging rules that cover this situation are in the Range Operations section:

Quote
Safe to leave the shooters hand. –
Slide locked open, empty magazine or no magazine.

Was slide locked open?  No - It was probably jammed partially closed on the three-point jam.
Was the magazine empty or removed?  No - There was a cartridge still partially in the magazine.

So, either of these two conditions would have made it a SDQ penalty to restage the pistol without declaring a malfunction.   Both conditions - well, you get the penalty for sure. 

The rule book makes an attempt to point out two of a large number of possible reasons the gun can not be safe to be staged.  It can't point out all the reasons and be brief.   So, it's better to use the rule of what IS safe to do, and declare all the rest unsafe, as the Range Operations rule does.   SDQ.   

A cartridge jammed in a three-point configuration is NOT "in the chamber".   However, a jam where the cartridge is neither chambered, nor still partly in the magazine, can occur.   A stovepipe is one.  A "double feed" jam could be another.   And the three-point jam is what you saw (had the rim cleared the magazine lips).   All of these jams still result in a "loaded gun" that cannot safely be put down as it is.  To prevent that penalty, either clear the jam and lock slide back, or declare a malfunction and ground the gun safely (pointing down range either way). 

It is more important for the shooter to know the condition of his guns in Wild Bunch than it is in cowboy shooting.


Good luck, GJ

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Abe E.S. Corpus

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Re: Current Rules Governing Re-Staging Pistol
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2014, 09:10:56 PM »
Thanks, Joe.  I agree that the shooter is responsible for the condition of the gun and in this example the shooter should have either cleared the gun before restaging OR declared a malfunction. 

By the way, I was running the timer and should have stopped the shooter before the pistol was put down.

Boggus Deal

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Re: Current Rules Governing Re-Staging Pistol
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2014, 07:44:10 AM »
Abe,
Maybe you could have stopped them but they were probably too fast.

Garrison Joe

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Re: Current Rules Governing Re-Staging Pistol
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 08:53:22 AM »
My first question is in regards to restaging a pistol with a loaded magazine inserted (assume that the pistol is at slide lock): can the shooter correct this condition?  The Handbook and the Manual show the penalty as a SDQ without the parenthetical statement about correcting the problem, however, the Wild Bunch Pocket RO Card (part of the RO Manual) shows "closed slide" and "loaded magazine" as SDQ conditions that the shooter can correct before firing the next gun.  There is a mark in the margin beside this part of the document suggesting that it was changed from the prior version.  Perhaps this was overlooked in the editing process but it seems that there is a conflict between the RO Pocket Card and the language of the text of the RO Manual and the Handbook.

Per your first question.  (After waiting a couple of days to see if a rules committee person wanted to run with this football)

I believe the WB RO committee have settled on the "once the pistol leaves your hand" you may no longer fix a problem with it.  This has wavered back and forth a little recently, which is probably why the pocket card is out of step with the Shooter's Handbook.   Perhaps a rules committee member can comment, especially if I'm wrong about the current state of the rules.

 
Good luck, GJ

Ride hard, shoot straight and speak the truth.    Col. J Cooper
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Happy Jack

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Re: Current Rules Governing Re-Staging Pistol
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 10:08:45 AM »
I've been busy and didn't look this over carefully until this morning. I remember working with Tex to update the books in August, but I didn't see the final draft he posted.
THERE IS A MISTAKE ON THE POCKET RO CARD. While you can correct the restaged EMPTY pistol before firing the next firearm, you CANNOT at this time correct a pistol restaged containing a magazine with live rounds. The next update to the rule books in Jan. 2015 will contain the correction.
1911's RULE !!!

Abe E.S. Corpus

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Re: Current Rules Governing Re-Staging Pistol
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 10:54:46 AM »
That makes sense to me.  Thank you, Jack.