Author Topic: Winter Range Update  (Read 6408 times)

Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2015, 12:02:46 PM »
Knockdowns tell all....... LOL

Except for the issue when they don't knockdown.....LOL

Kinda why we seem to have eliminated the dueling tree swinging....
And yes, I get the reset time involved, AND it has to be the same presentation for each shooter, And the.....well, you know.

Don't get me started....

Bodie
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evilroy

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2015, 12:28:48 PM »
Thanks for everyone's comments.
You have to understand that Bubba and I had to deal with what was going to be on the stages for the CAS match.  They do not have the time or manpower to change the stages over from CAS to WB.  All the stages were set for CAS
 and Bubba as always added targets to make the stages more demanding and in line with WB matches.  It was impossible to change all the stages completely and had we left them we would have had mostly close burn down stages. There was not a single target that could not be hit by an average shooter.  The match had to be a two day match due to manpower and bay availability.  We wanted a 3 day 12 stage match and have already started pushing for one next year as well as senior classes.  WB matches require greater accuracy and everyone understands that.  The stages are not designed to prevent clean shooters but rather are a result of the concept of more difficult targets and high round count.  No one shoots a clean IPSC or IDPA match and very few shooting sports count on clean matches as a sign of success. I thought the match was one of the best WB matches ever and one which truly tested one's shooting ability.  The 10 targets were confusing but were part of the SASS match and required some thinking.  Spotting it was a little difficult but it was the same for the CAS match.  If you want 30% of the shooters to shoot clean WB will not make you happy.

I want to thank the Posse Marshalls for the hard work and great organization it took to shoot 25 people through each stage in just a little over 60 minutes.  Also thanks to all the people who helped on the side matches and to all those who worked hard to make the stages flow in a very efficient manner.

Brother King

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2015, 03:43:06 PM »
I liked the WB match. The first day for me was a zoo as I had a mag/ ammo/ 1911 problem that didn't get sorted out until the 5th stage. Then I had a good 2nd day...well, decent anyway for WB standards- 6 misses- traditional w/ avg hi 50's. So read this with a cloud of disappointment that a 2nd at Fire & Ice came with a head plant at WR.

That said I liked the 'start any where- any gun'. I liked that the targets were all 'hittable'. I thought mixing up the S/G was a great idea. I remain disappointed that the rifle is still just a pistol with a longer sight radius. Shotguns are for moving targets and just slamming round after round through it at 10 yds is boring in the extreme.

But, changing those things would add MORE difficulty. I'm glad that the days of 25-40 misses are gone- I hope forever. Still...ONE clean match? Seriously, that's not good enough.... AND I know that when first designed targets weren't even meant to be as close as they were.

Finally, the WBAS IS GROWING. Let's shoot 12 stages and do it over 2 full days. We don't need no stinking side matches. Screw that.. people were bone tired and would be more tired if we did 6/ day.. plus, I wondered around until almost 2:30 trying to discover where the side matches were being held and finally had to go as I was MC at the Classic Cowboy dinner.


Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2015, 04:33:07 PM »
Four stages a day.... rigorous ones.
Three days.

These were good to me, well not to me, but a far cry from some other modified Caboy stages.
It will pan out. Everyone had to shoot the same match.
AND, not everyone will like whatever anyway.
My answer..... Let those that don't, step up to the plate to do all it takes to put on the match....
It is a tremendous amount of work. Wayyyyyy off the chart.
Just sayin...

Thanks to ALL that contributed to WR 2015. ALL of em.....

Bodie
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Roy Cassidy

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 05:28:57 PM »
W/B is not the same animal as CAS, that's why we shoot both for different reasons. If you want a total W/B Match come to Muster at Fort Misery in April the New York State Wild Bunch Championship and see how it is done. We offer a free dinner for the first person to shoot a clean match (monthly match included) and have not given one out yet.

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 11:15:40 PM »
I have debated on making this post because there are those who are going to disagree, so here goes:

Clean Match?  While a great accomplishment when it is done, to make clean matches a goal would ruin WBAS!

Analyze the Winter Range cowboy scores and you will notice that a miss can move a shooter ten or more places.  You see shooters with a faster total time being beat by clean shooters.  That leads to a style of shooting that is accuracy first, speed second.  This is just a characteristic of the Rank Point Scoring system but it changes how you shoot to win.

In WBAS, if you hold back to make sure you shoot all 10 stages clean you'll get beat.  The fastest Wild Bunch shooters are pushing the envelope on speed and are not worried about taking an occasional miss.  Because with our scoring an occasional miss won't wreck you.  I know you can't miss fast and win; but you can't shoot slow and cautious and win either.  Look at J.T. Wild, he had a stage DQ and still placed 5th overall!  That is one reason I like our Stage Point Scoring so well, it is as close to total time as you can get without using total time.  Therefore a wreck on a stage doesn't destroy your match.  So the goal becomes speed with accuracy and the fastest shooter wins!

You want more clean matches?  Make a miss a 10 second penalty (or go back to Rank Point Scoring).  Folks will slow down and make every shot count.  You want to step on the gas and see faster times?  Make a miss a 3 second penalty like in 3GN.
JFN
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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2015, 08:10:15 AM »
J Frank,  I agree. In wild bunch the goal is to shoot the best match possible as quick as possible.  Due to the nature of other gun games I play and the WB matches I have shot it's hard to understand the mind set of "only one clean match" as the game is played now with the number of shots,targets,speed. That "one match clean" is a big deal,it's a rarity. Something to be admired and an achievement when accomplished. I have shot one clean match in WB. I have won a few state championships so for me winning a match is way more common than shooting clean. It's a rare feat to be celebrated. Now if the game changes to say less shooting or easier target presentation so a clean match is common then that feat is diminished ,it's not held in the highest regard. It could even be said if enough shot clean it would be common. I'm sure though everyone could really feel good about there selves but what would really would have been accomplished? Dusty Boddams

evilroy

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2015, 09:58:01 AM »
Again, great discussion.  Thanks to all who made it work which includes the shooters.

Almost all stages could be shot from the left or right. Shooters choice.  Almost all targets could be shot in any order.  The most complicated shooting order was a double tap Nevada sweep.  We had 10 separate bays this year as opposed to 5 which were shot twice with some changes in the past. This was because we had very little changes to the CAS stages which were plotted out, measured and marked for the cowboy match. We ran 25 shooters through in an hour with very little fuss because everyone cooperated with being efficient. All passed the chrono check and the checking did not show down the match to any degree that I could tell.  We had 18 inch pistol targets at 5 yards as well as dueling trees at about 7 yards so it was hardly a precision match.  It was a good mix.  If you cannot hit a dueling tree target at 7 yards you need to practice.  Hitting it fast is the problem.  Only two people have shot a major match clean and both did not win the match.  I shot a state IDPA match in Mich and was awarded the "most accurate" award.  I did not even come close to winning the match.  The point is doing well and that is not defined by a clean match.  It is a high score that defines a good match as in WB. We had several down range stages and should encourage them if the facilities allow it.  We had very few "muzzle" issues because of the direction of movement choice the shooters had.  We saw very few "finger" issues because we were stressing the issue.

I'm sure there could be some improvement but it was a real good match which showcased what WB is all about.  Sure all knock downs might be very good.  You would have issues with how they are set, extra time in resetting, or if the berm had more that one stage in it it would be  impossible.  The extra time involved in setting them which would limit the amount of shooters you could run through.  Further no range has enough knock downs to run such a match.  You could also just paint after each shooter but again you would have berm and time problems. I will point out none of my 4 misses were overlooked.

We are gong to try for 3 day 4 stage a day match next year but there are many considerations which will have to be addressed by WR.

Thanks to all who made the match run smooth.  If you missed it you missed a good one.

Back 40

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2015, 11:26:15 AM »
Is it possible to see the WB stages that were shot at WR?

evilroy

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2015, 04:53:14 PM »
it would be a great idea if someone could scan the stages so everyone could see them.  I counted 13 hostage or dueling tree pistol targets in the whole match of 295 pistol shots. A real challenge. There was also a rifle plate rack and dueling tree and a pistol tombstone rack.

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2015, 06:13:21 PM »
The stages will be posted on Winter Range's website.

www.winterrange.com

It is the second tab right to left.  Stages from the previous years are posted there.
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

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Garrison Joe

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2015, 08:47:58 PM »
it would be a great idea if someone could scan the stages so everyone could see them.  I counted 13 hostage or dueling tree pistol targets in the whole match of 295 pistol shots. A real challenge. There was also a rifle plate rack and dueling tree and a pistol tombstone rack.

Try this link for all ten stages.  Let me know if you can't see them.

https://plus.google.com/photos/102143975088562546523/albums/6123705287851739905?banner=pwa&authkey=CKeq8_r1mPqlugE
Good luck, GJ

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2015, 09:30:33 AM »
Got'em  thanks Joe

Desert Pete

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2015, 08:16:57 PM »
My preference is six stages a day.  I understand the scheduling requirements for the CAS match but for WB I favor six.  At least, until WB gets to be as big as CAS.

Generally, I liked the stages.  They were challenging which made them interesting.  Much more interesting than variations of 5+5+10 every stage.

WB Fire and Ice was also a fun shoot.  A little more relaxed and the shooters were a little less tense.

Boggus Deal

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Re: Winter Range Update
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2015, 07:41:41 AM »
Desert Pete, I'm sorry you felt our posse was tense. I certainly didn't want anyone to go away from that and not feel they had the best time ever. Please feel free to PM me or post here anything you did not like as I would like to see if we can address it in the future.
You do have to remember, Winter Range is the National Championship of Wild Bunch and not only did we have the overall winner on our posse, we had two past winners and a couple who could have won this year. People are going to take it a little more serious than a lot of other matches.
Again, please feel free to PM me, call me 505-220-4922, email me [email protected] or post here what ever we can do to make it more enjoyable experience.