Author Topic: Definition of "Live Ammunition"  (Read 7948 times)

danawr

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Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« on: March 01, 2015, 10:43:42 AM »
Hello,

I could not find the definition of "Live Ammunition" in any of the Wild Bunch manuals.

Would a round that has had its primer struck by a firing pin but did not fire be considered "Live", "Dead" or maybe "In Limbo"?

Thank you,

Deputy Dan

DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2015, 11:17:22 AM »
DD, in what capacity are you speaking of? no round is dead to the shooter until the stage is over. lets say a shotgun round receives a lite strike and is ejected hits the table or ground its not dead the shooter can pick it up and run thru the gun again.  dusty

danawr

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2015, 03:01:49 PM »
Dusty Boddams,

I believe your question concerning "in what capacity" is part of the definition of "Legal or Illegally Acquired" ammunition.
The manuals are pretty explicit about that definition.

I would think regardless of when or where the ammunition is located, ammunition is either "Live" or "Dead".

I can think of three states the ammunition can be in:

(1) A round with an unstruck primer, powder and bullet all intact.

(2) A round with a struck primer and empty of powder and bullet.

(3) A round with a struck primer with powder and bullet still intact.

I believe state (1) is considered "Live" ammunition.
I believe state (2) is considered "Dead" ammunition.

Is state (3) "Live" or "Dead" as defined in the sport of Wild Bunch?

Thank you,

Deputy Dan





DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2015, 06:03:28 PM »
I'm not speaking of legal/illegal acquired ammunition at all . what I am saying is that a round( number 3 from your example) is not a dead round until the stage is over. in wb it is legal to retrieve an ejected round and use it. such as a round that you are trying to call dead which I suppose you are trying to make unavailable to the shooter. just to be clear the shooter does not have to pickup that round ,it is just an option the shooter has.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 06:06:56 PM by DUSTY BODDAMS »

danawr

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2015, 08:50:22 PM »
Dusty Boddams,

I am not talking about picking up rounds that have been ejected from the gun. I am not talking about making ammunition available or unavailable to a shooter.

Please dis-regard any previous statements or examples I have posted.

My question is simply the following:

In Wild Bunch Shooting what is the definition of the term "Live Ammunition"?

Thank you for your patience,

Deputy Dan



Kid Rich

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2015, 07:51:14 AM »
To me live ammo would have a primer that has not gone off even tho it has been struck. kR

Happy Jack

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2015, 10:37:26 AM »
I agree with Kid Rich. I will go even further. In my OPINION a live round is one with a primer, powder and bullet all in a case/hull. I don't care if the primer is in sideways, upside down, been struck, or not. If all the components are present it is a live round. If you don't think so throw it in a fire and see what happens.
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danawr

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2015, 12:42:03 PM »
Kid Rich, Happy Jack,

Thank you for your opinions. I do agree with them.

The following sentence can be found in the "Wild Bunch Action Shooting Handbook", Version 7.1, August 2014, Page 11:

"Empty of live ammunition, action open, and muzzle down range"

Would it be possible to include in the next version of the handbook an "Official" Wild Bunch definition of the term "Live Ammuntion"?

Thank you,

Deputy Dan

Garrison Joe

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2015, 12:51:55 PM »
I would NOT include the powder as being a necessary item to make a live round.   A primer and bullet are enough for all of our rule-making purposes, and are MUCH easier to check on the firing line than having to disassemble a round to check if the loader put any powder in it or not. 

I checked all 17 places in the WB shooter's handbook where "live ammunition" is called out, and that is a lot of citations without a definition.   It is assumed that the "common man's" definition of live ammo will be well understood.   Until someone decides that it is important to include in the definition list, use the common definition and you will get good results.   I did the thought-exercise of replacing "round containing a bullet" for all the places where "live ammunition" occurred - it worked for all the rules in WB shooter's handbook.

"Live round" is what is used about 5 times in the Cowboy Shooter's Handbook.   A "live round" is not defined there either.   The common-sense definition of live round has served them pretty well for about 20 years or so.   

Bottom line - don't look for a definition for "live ammunition" to be added to the WB Shooter's Handbook anytime soon.


Good luck, GJ

« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 03:09:17 PM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Garrison Joe

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2015, 03:19:31 PM »
State 3 - per Dan's OP.   Round with an indented primer, powder charged and bullet seated.

In my book, that is a live round.  I have fired at least twenty of those in matches quite successfully over the last year.   I have a nasty habit of cycling the lever on 73's before I've gotten to the break point on the trigger.  I get a light indent on primer.  I load it next stage and it fires fine.   For safety purposes, your state 3 HAS to be considered a live round.

I can see lots more states for the ammunition than just 3.   For example, what state is:
round that has no primer but has powder and bullet?
round that has a good primer, bullet seated but no powder?
and a few more.

I understand you want to get to the point of dividing the ammunition into two conditions, "live" and "otherwise".  So that you can better understand the rules. 

Happy Jack's proposal or even mine, to use the common definition, will work, as long as the ammo can be inspected from five feet away and determined to be "live" or "nope, that's not a live round"    Because it is the safety of the shooter or posse members that is the basis for establishing MOST of the rules in the WB (or Cowboy) handbooks.


Good luck, GJ

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Two Dot

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2015, 03:53:14 PM »
If it still has a bullet in the case I consider it to be "live ammo".
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marshal stone

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2015, 06:11:58 PM »

I'm with Two Dot on this one.

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2015, 10:24:24 PM »
If it still has a bullet in the case I consider it to be "live ammo".
+1

If it has to go bang to prove it is live ammo, its no longer live ammo.
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Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2015, 08:41:09 PM »
Okay. I need help here...
And yes, I know I need help, as I am beyond help...But, I am having some difficulty with what is the issue?
If its not an "EMPTY" case or hull, it would/should be considered "live" unless proven otherwise.
if it it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, sounds like duck, or tastes like duck.... 99.9 percent of the time, must be a duck!!!!!
Just sayin.

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Kid Rich

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Re: Definition of "Live Ammunition"
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2015, 09:55:58 PM »
I agree with GJ it does not need powder to be considered live. First it is not readily proven as to the presence of powder. Second I have seen a primer with no powder put a projectile thru both sides of a cardboard box. kR