Author Topic: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class  (Read 7366 times)

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2015, 08:18:48 PM »
Practical aspects of shooting for self defense are not necessarily the same as techniques used during shooting games.


The slide lock release of the slide is faster and used by shooters in many shooting games.

The sling shot method of releasing the slide is used by many practical/tactical shooters as it is a gross (large) motor skill compared to using the slide lock release.
When under stress, gross motor skills are easier to do than fine motor skills.

I disagree.  All of shooting is a "gross motor skill."  There are 2 reasons that the slingshot slide release method is taught.  Some shooters lack the strength to de-activate the slide stop and for beginning shooters it is the same action as cocking the pistol.

I don't use the terms gross/fine motor motor skills.  A better way of looking at it is conscious and subconscious skills.  To illustrate, I learned to drive a standard.  For a long time everything I did had to be thought about and planned in advance (conscious skills).  Now after 40 plus years of driving I no longer even think about shifting gears or if I hit a slick spot I instinctively turn the wheel without thinking about it.  Through practice and repetition I have moved all those skills from the conscious to the subconscious.  When I push a mag home my support thumb instinctively hits the slide stop as it returns to its spot (I shoot modern).

What ever technique you use, practice and repetition is necessary to make it a subconscious action.  Because the mind can only think about one thing at a time and I need to be thinking focusing on the front sight aligned on the center of the target.
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El Mulo Vaquero

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 04:03:57 AM »
"With the level of expertise with the 1911 that many new WBAShooters display, I feel it is a very good thing we never use the safety and never have the pistol cocked and locked. Just too chancy. Makes me shudder to think about and consider..."[/quote]


In other shooting sports, under supervised match conditions, this has never been a problem...............Even in CAS, we have 2 revolvers to draw, cock, shoot, reholster (OMG)..and yet we let first time shooters come out.

I believe it is this mentality that has led to the "dummying down" of the 1911, and other firearms in WB.  I also think it is in part responsible for the declining numbers, slow growth/attracting new shooters, and poor attendance at WB matches. 
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Lone Dog

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2015, 09:31:55 PM »
You may just have a point there Mulo but I have seen some really scary stuff done by newby WB shooters.

HAR! and lol ha ha Travis! Speed and me are not acquainted. Came in next to last at the first TX State only because last place did not show Sunday. Since that initial moment of glory, it's consistently last place over all for me. I' ll stick to slingshotting but thanks for the attempt to school an old dog pard!
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Allie Mo

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2015, 08:39:17 AM »
Hello,

Regarding El Mulo's comment about the lack of growth in WB, I blame the clubs with small, far targets, and complicated scenarios. I'm not just pulling this out of my bonnet. I have heard it from top tier SASS shooters. I was glad to hear that the last two EOT matches have not held with that match model.

Also, the requirement for a .40 or greater caliber rifle has been mentioned as a deterrent to new members.

Regards,

Allie
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El Mulo Vaquero

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2015, 09:15:21 AM »
Hello,

Regarding El Mulo's comment about the lack of growth in WB, I blame the clubs with small, far targets, and complicated scenarios. I'm not just pulling this out of my bonnet. I have heard it from top tier SASS shooters. I was glad to hear that the last two EOT matches have not held with that match model.

Also, the requirement for a .40 or greater caliber rifle has been mentioned as a deterrent to new members.

Regards,

Allie


+1 :)
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Boggus Deal

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2015, 09:54:05 AM »
Hello,

Regarding El Mulo's comment about the lack of growth in WB, I blame the clubs with small, far targets, and complicated scenarios. I'm not just pulling this out of my bonnet. I have heard it from top tier SASS shooters. I was glad to hear that the last two EOT matches have not held with that match model.

Also, the requirement for a .40 or greater caliber rifle has been mentioned as a deterrent to new members.

Regards,

Allie

Allie,
I sure hope WBAS doesn't go the way of CAS in the respect of big, close targets with spoon fed stages!! CAS is not a shooting match, anymore. It's a speed match. Not to belittle any of these people running sub 10 second stages, but that isn't truly shooting. WBAS, with smaller, further targets and challenging scenarios, tests more than speed.  It tests your accuracy. It tests your gun handling skills. It tests your ability to navigate a stage to your advantage. That is why we don't get much more crossover from SASS. Doesn't have anything to do with a rifle. The same folks who say it's the rifle cost that keeps them from coming over will be the same ones complaining about the number of rounds fired in a WBAS match. If I didn't have an SO who wants me to shoot CAS with, I'd stick to WBAS exclusively.
Boggus

Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2015, 10:18:14 AM »
Boggus....
Well, ya certainly nailed some of my similar feelings.
This is a many opinionated subject to be sure...
Shooting of any type is subjective I feel, and the many venues available prove that.
This may not be the cup of tea, so to speak, for some folks.
It is however an option available.
To me, there is no "fix" to draw five thousand shooters into this.
Just my take. Every ones opinion will vary

Volatile subject to be sure.

Keep shootin....LOL
Wild Bodie Tom
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El Mulo Vaquero

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2015, 11:16:52 AM »
Well with our club trying to run dedicated monthly WB in the 4 Corners for 4 1/2 years now, as WB is now, we will have to change something or it will end. Trying to draw new shooters, low turnout.  It is too much work setting up a good match (yes it is much more involved than CAS)  month after month for the turnout WE have.,  There has been no support from SASS or WB at all.

I wish I had better club news to report
 
I am sure other clubs are having their own struggles as well.
As it stands now, WB will remain a side match, locally, nationally, world, perhaps.

I just think of what WB could be.....and no I don't have all the answers.

If your clubs can shoot it as is, and everyone loves it, ENJOY IT.

It certainly is a volatile subject to be sure!

El Mulo Vaquero----Ken Griner

Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2015, 01:05:15 PM »
The club I do WB for has about 75 registered shooters for WB.
We get 16-20 when it's sane to shoot, and 12-15 in the wonderful heat of summer.

Not everybody obviously shows up every month.

We have a great time, within the restraints of the particular venue.
Cannot really do downrange, but we can and do have, shall we say, some interesting scenarios. Some 20-25 yard pistol/rifle as well. Along with the infamous "Cowboy on the hill" Which, when weather permits will probably be five of those coming all in. Pistol counts are 25-30 usually, sometimes 35.

We do the best we can with what we have.
Have a set of at least 10 die hard regulars, which to me, is good.

I have elected to finish out the year with shooter option to either use the rifle, or shoot the pistol in place of the rifle at the rifle targets.
Will see how that all goes. That will at least give kind of a snapshot, albeit a small one, of the rifles place at least locally. The 38 inclusion did nothing to grow the shooters at all. Those that tried WB with their 38, just returned with a big bore rifle..... That again, is here. Hear that works in other places, although for the local, if allowed is fine I suppose. But does nothing IF any of those folks wish to attend other matches outside of that, or a sanctioned match. Also hear of clubs NOT using the rifle as well. Varies....

Also, offering the revolver (1917) in lieu of the 1911 to see if any interest in that, as some of the Caboy shooters have stated they would do that and shoot Wild Bunch then.

Just cannot wrap themselves around shooting a 1911 in SASS. Again, everyone is different.....

Thanks

Bodie
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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2015, 07:38:32 PM »
BD and WBT, I'm with y'all on this and all I shoot now is wild bunch. I really enjoy the challenges of the game as played now. We don't have large monthlies but those that do attend are very enthusiastic about wild bunch and they all enjoy the game as played. We have a standing open invitation to all to shoot any sass legal rifle any 1911 and any pump shotgun shooting open class and not competing as score is not kept. No takers to speak of. As far as the droves of masses shooting it do we really need to worry about that? As long as we get enough new shooters to sustain it and we are all having a great time. Leading the horse to water comes to mind........people that don't really want to shoot the game will always find an excuse. WBT I bet the 1917's are rowdier than what's expected with the loads we shoot.  One more thought.......Sass was not an overnight sensation like a lot of folks think it was. In 1991 I joined and got the badge number 1907. Grif looked at my new badge I so proudly wore and said"my god Dusty there's gonna be 2000 people in sass before you know it!" His badge number is 93!  Maybe WB growth is still in the future. Dusty Boddams

Allie Mo

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2015, 08:14:39 PM »
WB Tom,

You've seen our set up. How do you feel it compares with others? I feel our targets are hittable, even if I don't, for even me.

El Mulo,

In my area, we have a dedicated WBAS club and I think attendance is pretty good. The "problem" is that we have many other matches to compete with, CAS, IDPA.... Yes, this is California!  ;)

Regards,

Allie
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Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2015, 10:35:07 AM »
Allie, you guys do well there.
I kinda like the last stage you folks do, if you are still doin that...
Wild Bodie Tom
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Grouchy Spike

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Re: 1917 Revolvers
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2015, 01:45:58 PM »
"I bet the 1917's are rowdier than what's expected with the loads we shoot." Dusty Boddams

I can attest that the 1917 loaded with the same 45 acp load as my 1911  (4.3 gr Trail Boss and a 230 gr bullet, PF = 161), is way more rowdy than the 1911!

I  backed off to 3.5 gr TB and a 230 gr bullet for the 1917.  While that is manageable,  I'd load lighter bullets for the 1917 if I had some handy.  But shooting the 1917 is a hoot!
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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2015, 02:03:05 PM »
GS, 17's are lots of fun! I've got a smith and a couple of Colts. Capt. Jarrett was talking about how versatile the 45acp is and that a CAS/WB competitor could just use a 45acp out of rifle ,1911 and Saa and compete in both disaplines. Well I have uberti with a 45acp cylinder and he has a pair of Rugers convertibles . We decided to shoot a cowboy stage for fun with them as an experiment. Found out really quick that while using the same cartridge makes sense using the same load does not! Them pistols was rowdy! Fun test though.....hey that's a neat BAMM bench that got made,should work well for all involved.   Dusty Boddams

Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2015, 02:34:12 PM »
Rowdy is good.
They ain't 29's though.....

Makes ya respect a 1911 a bit however using the same loads.....
Wild Bodie Tom
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