Author Topic: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class  (Read 7376 times)

Allie Mo

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Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« on: July 13, 2015, 10:01:38 AM »
Hi Folks,

I took my first shooting class (where you shoot a gun) of any type on Saturday.  It was Fundamental Tactical Handgun and was taught by two people who were and are LE academy instructors.

Many of the techniques were different than those we use in WBAS.
For example, we never "cock and lock (safety on)" at the loading table. That was their first step.
They did not have us unlock the slide before showing clear. They wanted us to pull it back again to make it release.
They kept having us put the safety on, even with no mag in the gun. I'd never used the safety before... :-[

I am curious why WBAS procedures for loading, showing clear, and holstering are different than this.

Three valuable things I learned were proper grip, indexing the mag into the gun, and trigger pull. They had us hold the trigger back after firing rather than immediately releasing it. That seemed to make the subsequent shot more accurate.

About gripping the gun, I learned in a class at the convention to not use the "teacup grip." However, I don't remember there being only one correct grip. Theirs was a bit awkward for me to get the off-hand thumb in position on the lower part of the slide. However, that could be that my muscle memory was stuck in a bad habit.

I hope this makes sense. Any thoughts?

Thanks for any help.

Allie

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Boggus Deal

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2015, 10:23:37 AM »
Allie,
For one thing, the 1911 was not designed for cocked and locked. The thumb safety was an addition requested by the US Army. Most other shooting sports use the same basic procedure for showing clear; magazine out, gun clear, slide down, hammer down and holster. That is for most shooting sports.
The tactical people do things different. I carry a 1911 most days. It is cocked and locked. Even in WBAS, as I draw, I feel my thumb wipe down the thumb safety. Not muscle memory as much as training. I'll  always argue that muscles have no memory. Disconnect your central nervous system and your muscle will not do anything....
Teacupping is the second worst possible way to use two hands. The first is to grab your strong hand wrist with your weak hand.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "They did not have us unlock the slide before showing clear. They wanted us to pull it back again to make it release."

Also, holding the trigger back for how long? You have to have follow through, of course and the trigger mechanism has to reset but why hold it back?
Boggus
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 10:25:44 AM by Boggus Deal »

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2015, 12:00:04 PM »
Boggus you are correct.  I think that JMB designed the 1911 to be carried with the hammer down on a round in the chamber.  I know folks that carry them that way.

Allie, I also bet they didn't just load 5 rounds in each mag!

Cocked and Locked?  Let the discussion begin.
JFN
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 12:06:32 PM by J. Frank Norfleet »
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Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2015, 12:09:11 PM »
Probably not..... LOL

Thing we need to understand is pretty much any venue we go to will have different "rules".
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Boggus Deal

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2015, 01:32:03 PM »
At certain times, other 3gun matches start your pistol hammer down on an empty chamber with NO magazine in the gun. I've also had to clear the gun on the clock and reholster!

Allie Mo

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2015, 09:03:49 AM »

I don't quite understand what you mean by "They did not have us unlock the slide before showing clear. They wanted us to pull it back again to make it release."

Also, holding the trigger back for how long? You have to have follow through, of course and the trigger mechanism has to reset but why hold it back?
Boggus
In WBAS, I've been told to push the release button (I think that is it's name) to release. They wanted us to pull the slide back a tiny bit and release, which seemed dumb to me when the button did the same thing.

At first we held the trigger back and released slowly. After learning that, it was released almost immediately.
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Happy Jack

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2015, 09:33:32 AM »
Allie, there are two fundamental methods in use to release the slide. The use of the slide lock (what you called a button) and the "slingshot" method you were shown at the class. Law enforcement almost exclusively uses the slingshot method. Competition shooters almost exclusively use the slide lock method. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Slide lock is quicker. Slingshot builds memory for clearing malfunctions. Many other things can be said in support of each method.
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Boggus Deal

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2015, 09:38:56 AM »
Okay. Yes, two different trains of thought. Some say the slide stop is used to lock the slide back and using it to release the slide is hard on it. It is a much faster method than using the sling shot method. If it wears the gun out, my opinion is that there is something wrong.  Others WILL disagree.
The trigger control part is good to learn.

Allie Mo

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2015, 10:41:25 AM »
Allie, I also bet they didn't just load 5 rounds in each mag!
No, they did not. They had us load 6. Some folk's mags held 10; mine held 8. The reason, IIUC, is to qualify for a CCW, you shoot 6 rounds each at 5, 10, and 15 yard targets.
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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2015, 07:53:30 AM »
AM, for another different taste of rules go shoot an IDPA match.starting cocked and locked,heavy emphasis on tactical reloads retaining the magazine that still has cartridges and cover. You don't reload in the open and you always shoot from cover. If not done properly to the rules the competitor is penalized by time for not retaining the mag,reloading in the open and not having a good percentage of the body behind cover while shooting and reloading. Oh and I almost forgot "slicing the pie" where from cover when you peek out shoot the first visable target then lean out some more and shoot the next etc. ;D and ya get to tape cardboard targets! I like to shoot several different gun games in addition to WB which is my favorite. I find the different rules and how the games are played as interesting and fun. Dusty Boddams

Allie Mo

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2015, 10:08:02 AM »
Hi Boggus,

I think I'm at a maximum for following different rules with SASS, WBAS, and W3G.

Regards,

Allie
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Allie Mo

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2015, 11:05:48 AM »
PS That sounds fun, except for the tactical reloads. I fear I would get confused when shooting WB. I like the "slicing the pie" idea, unfortunately, it could lead to safeties by SASS/WBAS rules, if you move your feet instead of just lean.

I bet you would like W3G. It has very few non-safety rules and the safety rules are very similar to SASS, no Procedurals as you shoot targets as you encounter them going around barricades. You either miss or, if you move back unsafely, you get a safety. The first time I shot it, at my home venue, we taped cardboard. At Piru, The Deadwood Boys, you paint metal targets. I wish we did that at SASS matches. I've heard the argument that it would take too many people, which is not totally true as the matches I've attended had one counter and two painters/tapers.

All shooting sports are good and can interest more people in our 2A rights, if they can find one they like. I believe SASS is the most family or previously non-shooting oriented sport and wish it were promoted more.
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Lone Dog

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2015, 11:10:14 PM »
I always use the slingshot method. Always have, much prefer it. Just do. The only time I would ever use the slide release is if my off hand or arm are out of the fight. Then, of course and  by necessity, the slide release would have to be utilized. To each his own YMMV. I do not consider it all that much if any slower as it is accomplished as the gun comes up to the line of sight and the two hand grip re-acquired.

With the level of expertise with the 1911 that many new WBAShooters display, I feel it is a very good thing we never use the safety and never have the pistol cocked and locked. Just too chancy. Makes me shudder to think about and consider...
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Boggus Deal

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2015, 09:45:32 AM »
Dog, The sling shot method is years slower than using the slide stop. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll film and time it to try and show the difference.

Cayuse Jack

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Re: Fundamental Tactical Handgun Class
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2015, 07:13:26 PM »
Practical aspects of shooting for self defense are not necessarily the same as techniques used during shooting games.


The slide lock release of the slide is faster and used by shooters in many shooting games.

The sling shot method of releasing the slide is used by many practical/tactical shooters as it is a gross (large) motor skill compared to using the slide lock release.
When under stress, gross motor skills are easier to do than fine motor skills.
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