Author Topic: BAMM rifle question  (Read 15086 times)

Garrison Joe

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2015, 07:31:38 AM »
I believe I would, should someone show up with a Yugo M48, have to say that that was not a WW II rifle, and thus would not be eligible under our current BAMM rules.   Those variations on the Mauser design of the M24 Yugo were designed in '48 and all built starting with 1948.   Thus, unfortunately, not in rules compliance. 

However, the Yugo 24/47 makes a very nice BAMM rifle.  That was a Model 24 rifle, rebarreled and refurbished in Yugo arsenals from 1947 forward.  Prvi Partisan makes ammo in 8x57 and sometimes other ammo and brass manufacturers turn out a little. 

The K31 (Swiss) also is a good BAMM rifle.   Several specimens have been circulating through gun shops recently.

And the Swedish M96 Mauser and later variations are very nice and in good shape, usually.   Although their chambering (6.5x55 "Swede") is a little more of a challenge to shoot cast bullets through, as it needs a very long bullet to fill the throat.  And brass is even harder to run down.

Good luck, GJ
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 07:33:29 AM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2015, 10:48:04 AM »
Cabelas has 6.5 by a couple different newly manufactured loaded, for under 20 bucks a box.
A couple of boxes will supply ya with brass.
Just sayin.
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Garrison Joe

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2015, 11:22:10 AM »
WBT -
Thanks, I never look at Cabela's web site, so I might have to peek at it.   Normally way over my price-value range, and no local store to go pick it up at.

GJ

PS: Oh, I see they have bulk PPU 6.5x55 brass in stock, too.   Less than $60 a hundred.   That might just be worth paying shipping for.  I normally buy more than just 20 at a time....

OH, they've got bulk Nosler brass too in stock now.   Now we're talking.   

Thanks, GJ
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 11:28:25 AM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2015, 11:45:45 AM »
Shot both their overseas 6.5 new stuff.
Seems good.....

Figured a good way to get brass.....

See ya.
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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2015, 02:01:09 PM »
I believe I would, should someone show up with a Yugo M48, have to say that that was not a WW II rifle, and thus would not be eligible under our current BAMM rules.   Those variations on the Mauser design of the M24 Yugo were designed in '48 and all built starting with 1948.   Thus, unfortunately, not in rules compliance. 

However, the Yugo 24/47 makes a very nice BAMM rifle.  That was a Model 24 rifle, rebarreled and refurbished in Yugo arsenals from 1947 forward.  Prvi Partisan makes ammo in 8x57 and sometimes other ammo and brass manufacturers turn out a little. 

The K31 (Swiss) also is a good BAMM rifle.   Several specimens have been circulating through gun shops recently.

And the Swedish M96 Mauser and later variations are very nice and in good shape, usually.   Although their chambering (6.5x55 "Swede") is a little more of a challenge to shoot cast bullets through, as it needs a very long bullet to fill the throat.  And brass is even harder to run down.

Good luck, GJ

Gj,  what's got to be remembered is the mod 48 was built new at the exact same time the 24/47 were going thru refurbishment on the same equipment the exact same rifle as the 24/47 actually there are washed model 48's that have a lot of the same exact pre ww2 parts on them due to parts clean up running around that could not be told as different from the 24/47. To put it another way k31 would have to be dated to ww2 as well as several other rifles,"national ordance " anyone. The 48 is 100 percent ww2 correct.

Garrison Joe

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2015, 02:47:32 PM »
Ummmm. Heartburn time.

Quote
BOLT ACTION MILITARY MATCH
The rifle must be an original caliber bolt-action rifle issued by any country to its
military forces through the end of WWII. It must be as issued with original iron
battle sights and NO external modifications. Internal modifications are allowed.
Faithful reproductions are allowed.
   
page 17, WB Shooter's Handbook

The Model 48 Yugo was never issued to military forces of any country through the end of WW II.  Are you claiming the Yugo 48 qualifies because it is a "faithful reproduction" of the Model 24?   It sure is not marked as such.  And, comparing my 48 with a 24/47, there are lots of little things, and some big things, different between them.

I don't follow your line of reasoning.   

Good luck, GJ
Good luck, GJ

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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2015, 03:11:54 PM »
How could it not be a faithful reproduction? Made on the very equipment that the 24/47 were refurbed on? I'm sorry but I don't get your reasoning for making it illegal. The differences are minut to say the least. Are you REALLY going to tell someone with a m48 in 8mm that they can't shoot with you when there 48 looks just like your 24/47, REALLY!?

Garrison Joe

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2015, 03:46:28 PM »
Believe some serious thinking is needed here.  Either rules mean what they say, or you can have a bunch of hidden decisions behind them with loopholes. 

I think it's time WB rules really mean what they say.  Then, if they say the wrong things, correct the rules. 

Please don't clog up the rules with unwritten exceptions, that require folks to have intimate knowledge of now- defunct factories in a communist country, and how they either reworked or built new rifles almost 70 years ago.   

Keep it straight forward, and let the rules mean what they say.  I'd rather not have WB handbook a clutter like Cowboy rules have become.   

Good luck, GJ

Good luck, GJ

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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2015, 04:06:15 PM »
Not clogging up anything joe. So if that doesn't fall under at the very least a" faithful reproduction" then what does? Do you really want to take BAMM into the rule nazi category and make sure that every rifle is pre end of ww2? Are we a 100 percent historical accuracy group or are we shooters? Where do you want to draw the line ? A German mauser competitor shows up with argentine accouterments you don't let him shoot cause he is not 100 percent. A shooter shows up with a 1951 dated garand belt with his 1903 Springfield? I'm not requiring you to have intimate knowledge of anything that is my point.how far do you want to split hairs? Also if you don't have that knowledge then how are you going to properly inspect each and everyone of these rifles that you want to keep out?

Garrison Joe

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2015, 06:24:08 AM »
Degeneration to a personal level argument?  Nope, not going there. 
Good luck, GJ

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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2015, 08:05:40 AM »
Gosh gj,if I have offended you that was not my intention. I'm sorry ! I didn't realize we were having an argument. I thought we were having a conversation with different points of view.

Garrison Joe

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2015, 08:08:10 AM »
Now, the closest example of what we have done so far in WB is with the Win Model 12.   Winchester also made, on I suppose the exact same equipment, the Model 25, a solid-frame light weight cheaper variation of the Model 12.  Our rules allow only the Model 12.  Several folks have asked over the years, can I run a Model 25?   The answer has always been NO.

Several folks have pointed out that some guns were made to the Model 25 specs but were stamped Model 12.  Those have been allowed in, as no one really wanted to have to get out the collector's books and serial numbers lists (if they even exist) and noodle out whether it is really a 25 or a 12.  Just go by model stamped on the gun, and make life simple and easy both for Match Directors and shooters trying to decide in a gun shop whether a gun is legal for WB or not.

I think we have exactly the same problem here with the Yugo model numbers.   Except the rules for BAM rifles did not list acceptable models numbers, just the phrase (approximately) "built and could have been issued up to the end of WW II."

The easy way - knowing that the Yugo Mausers were model numbered for the year of design, and anything designed before 1946 is good for BAMM. 

The hard way - trying to cipher out various variations and loopholes and waving of arms about the gun being built on the same production line, except something like 20 years later (after the end of WW II in the case of the Model 48).

Priceless - having clear rules that all of us are willing to follow, no exceptions, no wiggle room.   

And, if a club wants to allow some newer model at local matches, they are sure free to do so - just let the shooter know it won't fly at a major match.

You do realize most Mod 48 Yugos have bent bolt handles and the Mod 24 and 24/47s have straight handles?  The biggest, but not the only, improvement in those later model guns?




Good luck, GJ

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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2015, 08:45:55 AM »
Sure I realize the bent bolt handles and you do know that some 24-47  were refurbed with bent bolt handles? Model 25 are not built on the exact same machinery. They are often confused but are not the same without going into details here but there are several major differences. A model 12 was never built with a solid frame. But using this example about model 12  then are you saying y12's are not legal because they were introduced in the 70 's and had investment cast receivers along with a few internal and external modifications? Also what about a scrubbed m48 with no markings from the factory,no crest either . Some with milled parts some with sheet metal? Does that shooter get turned away because nobody knows what it is and therefor could be illegal? as far as the yugo we can split hairs to the point of a 24/47 should not be allowed because it is plain that it was post ww2 just by its stamping as far as date of remanufacture and has many new parts mixed,force matched so it is really just a post war production gun same as the 48 and by that way of thinking all the arsenal rebuilt mosins some of which were rebuilt into the seventies would be illegal. Which come to think of it all 98's that were given to other countries that they ran thru the full rebuild program into the sixties........well you get idea. My point is the 48 is legal because it is either a continuation or it is a reproduction. BAMM is not a historical reenactment. It is a shooting sport. I would like to keep it that way. One more thing you mentioned anything designed before 1946 is good for BAMM , when do you think the m48 was designed? The correct answer is before 1924.

Garand

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2015, 07:50:36 AM »
Why was the age limit for BAMM set at the end of World War 2 in the first place? The time frame for the movie "Wild Bunch" was circa 1916. Lets try and be at least a little period correct. If I wanted to shoot a World War 2 re-enactor match, then I would bring out my Lee Enfield #4 Mk 1. I think that we are doing ourselves an injustice by widening the parameters for the competition.
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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: BAMM rifle question
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2015, 10:56:26 AM »
Firearms availability is the simple answer. we want more competitors not less. If your personal standards dictate a pre 1916 mindset then by all means do that. Get a early mil spec gun and enjoy. Shoot the BAMM competitions in the style era you want. If you are going that early you could go full period correct with the eagle snaps on your clip belt and all. Now that would be neat! Dusty