Author Topic: Reload : Tactical or not ....  (Read 2606 times)

Frenchie Boy

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Reload : Tactical or not ....
« on: September 16, 2015, 08:29:22 AM »
Hi everybody,

I have a question regarding Reload.

Shooter's is standing before the beep at the firing line.
At the beep, shooter's draw his pistol, slides back, and during this operation, the magazine drops.
The slide comes back forward and closes on an empty chamber with no magazine in the pistol.
Shooter takes another magazin, insert the magazine without opening the pistol, slides back and start to shoot.

What would be your call, if any ?

This did happen during DOT this year in Slovakia and I was the RO.
FYI I gave a No Call as the gun was totally empty when the reload occurred and no shoot did go downrange before.
Just want to know if I made the correct call and if not why.

Thanks



Thanks a lot.

Boggus Deal

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Re: Reload : Tactical or not ....
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2015, 09:26:45 AM »
Personally, I would have stopped the shooter and let them restart the stage completely since no round had went down range.  Cleared the gun, loaded a magazine and let them restart, after taking a breath.

Blackfoot

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Re: Reload : Tactical or not ....
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2015, 12:14:23 PM »
No call, not a tactical reload

TACTICAL RELOAD,  The act of inserting a loaded magazine in a pistol with a live round in the chamber.
(Wild Bunch definitions)

Blackfoot
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Garrison Joe

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Re: Reload : Tactical or not ....
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2015, 02:38:59 PM »
+1 for Boggus's action.  Stop the shooter if no rounds have gone down range and restart them after the gun is made ready for a good start.  Yell STOP, until the shooter stops.  If needed, put a hand on shoulder or arm.

But, if the TO can't get that to happen, then let's see what we can do.

It's not a tactical reload to shove a mag into the 1911 at that point, as no round was in chamber.

But is it PERMITTED to load ON THE FIRING LINE with slide down if there is a mag catch failure (or even operator error) that causes a magazine to drop, leaving the slide down on an empty chamber, BEFORE the shooter has fired rounds?

The main rule section for loading the 1911 says:

Quote
All reloads shall be from slide lock, no “tactical reloads.” You may not reload the
pistol with a round in the chamber. (MSV) You may NOT reload a single round in
the 1911 by placing it in the chamber and then closing the slide. (MSV) All
ammunition must be loaded from a magazine. All reloads shall be from slide lock.
(Failure to do so, MSV) THE ONLY EXCEPTION to the slide-lock rule is if after
firing all the rounds in the magazine the slide lock fails and the shooter needs to
reload without moving, one may do so without locking the slide back before
inserting the new magazine

Ok, several conditions cited there, so let's examine step by step here.

1. All reloads shall be from slide lock.  Was this a reload?   Yep, it was not the magazine that the shooter loaded at the loading table.  I'd call it a reloaded magazine.  Was it from slide lock?  No.

2.  Exception to the first step THE ONLY EXCEPTION to the slide-lock rule is if after
firing all the rounds in the magazine the slide lock fails and the shooter needs to
reload without moving, one may do so without locking the slide back before
inserting the new magazine.
  Was this something that happened because the slide lock failed AFTER firing all rounds from magazine?  Unfortunately, no, this was a possible failure of mag catch, not slide lock.  And shooter did not fire any rounds from the ejected/dropped magazine.   Seems the exception does not apply.   While I believe the situation would be extremely similar to when the exception would be allowed, the rule seems so insistent that it had to be after firing the rounds in the old magazine, that it seems to me we cannot apply the exception.

3.   So, based on failing 1 and 2, I'd have to call it a MSV for reloading with slide not locked back.  Yes it's harsh in this instance.   To avoid it, shooter should have locked the slide back.   If you think it's too harsh in this instance, the rules probably ought to be adjusted to allow it.

Good luck, GJ



« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 10:17:18 AM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Frenchie Boy

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Re: Reload : Tactical or not ....
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2015, 11:33:07 PM »
Hi Joe,

OK got your point.

Stopping the shooter should have been the best option. Fully agree on this one.
Did not do so, as no round was fired and the shooter was quite speedy on reloading another Mag.

But my mistake anyway. fortunately it was at shooter's advantage. ( But not to the other's ... Mmmhhhh )

And Yes, the rule is a bit harsh on this one. But, .... the rules are the rules.
If a clarification could be done on this, it would be fine, but it's not in my hands ....

Thanks anyway for the nice clarification.


Boggus Deal

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Re: Reload : Tactical or not ....
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2015, 07:35:48 AM »
Frenchy, Please don't take my comment as being critical of you. Believe me, I know how fast some folks are and you just can't catch them. Been there, done that! Personally, I would still give it a no call.

Blackfoot

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Re: Reload : Tactical or not ....
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2015, 09:12:53 AM »
I totally agree that a re-start would have been appropriate. 

Blackfoot
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Shoot fast, miss slow, have fun!

Frenchie Boy

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Re: Reload : Tactical or not ....
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2015, 10:59:39 PM »
Hi Boggus,

No problem. Did not take it personally at all.
I'm just trying to improve myself in understanding the tiny little corners of the rules.

Those rules that are at the edge and that sometimes are not always easy to deal with when you are on the stage.

..... and yes, a restart would have been most appropriate, ..... but FWIW, a rule clarification on a reload when NO round has been fired and NO Round is in the chamber could be nice. :)

just my 2 cents.