Author Topic: Rule application questions - new shooter  (Read 2422 times)

Texas Bart

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Rule application questions - new shooter
« on: September 28, 2015, 12:41:04 PM »
1) Maybe I haven't shot enough matches (4) to run across the situation so would like an example of where a certain rule would apply.
On page 24 of the shooting handbook, item #2 (actually second #2), I'm having a hard time visualizing the situation where this might apply. Could someone give me an example that would help clarify?

2) On page 14 of the Shooting Handbook I see that ammo slides are legal but nothing on location. Can a combination slide for SG and Rifle ammo be on the gunbelt in front between the magazine pouches and the handgun?

#2 is probably a dumb questions but don't want to buy something I can't use. Seems to me that the rules don't say no, so it's permitted.

Boggus Deal

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Re: Rule application questions - new shooter
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2015, 01:14:35 PM »
Texas, no dumb question. Please feel free to ask here anything, anytime. I'll try to answer theses two.
#1 Stage calls for rifle and shotgun staged at the same position. Shotgun is fired first. Shooter runs to the position and picks up rifle, gets it to shoulder and levered before anyone catches them, you now have a Procedural penalty. 
#2 Yes, not only is that legal, it is probably the most preferred method. Keeps the spare ammo very handy and keeps the magazines to the offside of the body. Kirkpatrick and Mernickle both make slides like you are referring to.
Hope this helps.

Garrison Joe

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Re: Rule application questions - new shooter
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2015, 01:36:02 PM »
1.   Wow, you sure make it hard to answer this question by being so vague.  The rule you seem to be asking about, I think, is:

Quote
2. If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the
shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty. In this situation, if the
shooter elects or is forced to miss an appropriate target due to unsafe angles or
target availability, a round may be reloaded to avoid a miss penalty (the dreaded
“Double Jeopardy” of a procedure and a miss). This does not mean a shooter
may reload at any other time to make up a miss. Rounds may also be reloaded
to replace unfired, ejected rounds.


OK, so now we have to guess what you have a question about, because I can think of several situations that the rule applies to.

Shooting a gun out of the gun order specified on the stage instructions - Yep, that earns you a single P.  Say you run to a spot where you shoot rifle and 1911 from, 1911 was supposed to be shot last.  But you yank it on the run and rack the slide as you skid to a stop, and start banging away.  You earn the P when the first shot is fired from the 1911 before you engaged the targets with all the rifle rounds you should have used.

Next situation might be that the second position is only a rifle-shooting position, with the 1911 intended to be shot from another position even farther away. Again you skid to a stop in the middle of the stage and yank the 1911, only to find that you can't really shoot at anything now that you have a cocked 1911 in your hands, because you can't see or get a safe angle on the pistol targets.  You remember that you can drop mag and rack slide and lock slide back, then put the 1911 down on a prop open and empty and locked back, then shoot your rifle and pick up 1911 again and move to the third position.  No penalty would be invoked.

Now, change the stage so the pistol to be shot at middle position and rifle at last position.  You run to middle position and by mistake pick up and rack the rifle to put a live round in chamber.   Then you remember that you can't shoot rifle from here, because none of the rifle targets are visible yet.  Whatcha gonna do with the rifle while you shoot that 1911?   If you open the lever, you toss a live round and you still don't have a safe gun to allow to leave your hands.  So, you could lever out the other nine rounds.  Ugh - but no penalty if you have 10 reloads on your person. 

Or instead of levering any round out, fire that first rifle round safely into the berm.  The rule we are talking about defines that firing of the gun out of sequence and from wrong position to only cost you a P.   With the action closed and hammer down on a fired round, the rifle is safe to be set on a prop or table, then you can shoot your pistol rounds, then you can pick the rifle back up and take rifle to the last position, and even put a reload round in it to make up for the one you fired in the dirt.   Bottom line, you only get the P for firing the rifle out of order and you are clean on the rifle targets because you got a "free reload".   



  2.   Lots of us WB shooters have a sg and rifle ammo slide right where you describe.  Bob Mernickle makes a nice slide that snaps over your gun belt buckle, and puts 4 SG and 6 rifle loops in that area between magazine slides (on left) and holster (on right) (for RH shooters).

Good luck, GJ
Good luck, GJ

Ride hard, shoot straight and speak the truth.    Col. J Cooper
Why else would you want to be here?

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Texas Bart

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Re: Rule application questions - new shooter
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2015, 06:25:11 PM »
Thanks Bogus Deal,

Texas, no dumb question. Please feel free to ask here anything, anytime. I'll try to answer theses two.
#1 Stage calls for rifle and shotgun staged at the same position. Shotgun is fired first. Shooter runs to the position and picks up rifle, gets it to shoulder and levered before anyone catches them, you now have a Procedural penalty.
Is the P for chambering the round, or do you get the P if you fire the round? Obviously got a problem and have to either fire the round or jack it out, along with all other live rounds, to put the rifle down. Looks like the best move would be to shoot all rifle targets and take the P.  See insertion in following post. 
#2 Yes, not only is that legal, it is probably the most preferred method. Keeps the spare ammo very handy and keeps the magazines to the offside of the body. Kirkpatrick and Mernickle both make slides like you are referring to.
Hope this helps.

Texas Bart

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Re: Rule application questions - new shooter
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2015, 07:12:42 PM »
Thanks Garrison Joe,
Sorry for being so vague but I think you pretty well nailed it with your post. It did generate one more question, inserted below.

1.   Wow, you sure make it hard to answer this question by being so vague.  The rule you seem to be asking about, I think, is:

Quote
2. If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the
shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty. In this situation, if the
shooter elects or is forced to miss an appropriate target due to unsafe angles or
target availability, a round may be reloaded to avoid a miss penalty (the dreaded
“Double Jeopardy” of a procedure and a miss). This does not mean a shooter
may reload at any other time to make up a miss. Rounds may also be reloaded
to replace unfired, ejected rounds.


OK, so now we have to guess what you have a question about, because I can think of several situations that the rule applies to.

Shooting a gun out of the gun order specified on the stage instructions - Yep, that earns you a single P.  Say you run to a spot where you shoot rifle and 1911 from, 1911 was supposed to be shot last.  But you yank it on the run and rack the slide as you skid to a stop, and start banging away.  You earn the P when the first shot is fired from the 1911 before you engaged the targets with all the rifle rounds you should have used.

Next situation might be that the second position is only a rifle-shooting position, with the 1911 intended to be shot from another position even farther away. Again you skid to a stop in the middle of the stage and yank the 1911, only to find that you can't really shoot at anything now that you have a cocked 1911 in your hands, because you can't see or get a safe angle on the pistol targets.  You remember that you can drop mag and rack slide and lock slide back, then put the 1911 down on a prop open and empty and locked back, then shoot your rifle and pick up 1911 again and move to the third position.  No penalty would be invoked.

Now, change the stage so the pistol to be shot at middle position and rifle at last position.  You run to middle position and by mistake pick up and rack the rifle to put a live round in chamber.   Then you remember that you can't shoot rifle from here, because none of the rifle targets are visible yet.  Whatcha gonna do with the rifle while you shoot that 1911?   If you open the lever, you toss a live round and you still don't have a safe gun to allow to leave your hands.  So, you could lever out the other nine rounds.  Ugh - but no penalty if you have 10 reloads on your person. 

Or instead of levering any round out, fire that first rifle round safely into the berm. 
Understand that firing that round gets you the P, but better than jacking out all live rounds and having to reload. New question is generated by the first #2 on the page referring to de-cocking, a strict no no. Second sentence states "NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator." Since you shooting the stage with the TO at hand, is the sentence "This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO to the shooter" satisfied, or do you still have to tell the TO what you are doing?
The rule we are talking about defines that firing of the gun out of sequence and from wrong position to only cost you a P.   With the action closed and hammer down on a fired round, the rifle is safe to be set on a prop or table, then you can shoot your pistol rounds, then you can pick the rifle back up and take rifle to the last position, and even put a reload round in it to make up for the one you fired in the dirt.   Bottom line, you only get the P for firing the rifle out of order and you are clean on the rifle targets because you got a "free reload".   



  2.   Lots of us WB shooters have a sg and rifle ammo slide right where you describe.  Bob Mernickle makes a nice slide that snaps over your gun belt buckle, and puts 4 SG and 6 rifle loops in that area between magazine slides (on left) and holster (on right) (for RH shooters).

Good luck, GJ

Thanks for the response and sorry for the additional question.
Bart

Garrison Joe

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Re: Rule application questions - new shooter
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2015, 10:15:46 PM »
Bart -

The way I've seen it handled, if you pick up the rifle at the wrong time and fire it once and leave it closed on the fired round while you set it down, you would not have needed "TO's permission to decock" - you would just have fired the long gun on your own. 

Decocking in my definition book (Common Sense Handbook, because Decocking is not defined in the WB Shooters Handbook) would be trying to lower the hammer while preventing the gun from firing, by restraining the hammer fall with your thumb.  You would probably NOT be given permission to decock a loaded rifle by any TO worth his salt, as that will leave action closed and hammer down on a live round, which is safe neither for movement nor restaging. 

However, firing the rifle is ALLOWED any time after the beep on the firing line, it is just a Procedural penalty if done at the wrong time.   You never have to ask the TO permission to FIRE the rifle.  Well, unless the command to Cease Fire has been issued.

A COURTESY statement out loud to the TO about "Firing rifle out of sequence" might be worthwhile, so you minimize the misunderstanding and keep the TO and spotters aware that you will be taking advantage of the "free reload" later when you get to the time to shoot rifle.

This kind of mistake happens really rarely in most matches.  Usually a TO will be yelling his head off "PISTOL, PISTOL, PISTOL" to get you to not rack the lever on the rifle that is in your hands.     And if you do, a good TO will usually say something like "DUMP THE ROUND SAFELY DOWNRANGE" because that is the net-low-time-option at that point.

You really are exploring an area where the rules are not a well-worn-path with lots of "case law" to go back to.

Oh, also, you have until the time that the first round of the next gun-type is fired to correct most problems with the previous gun used.    Folks have fairly often run to a new shooting position, then realized the TO is yelling "one more round" and turned around to go back and fire the last round, both to avoid having a round-not-fired (scored as a miss) and to avoid leaving a round on the carrier of the restaged rifle (a Minor Safety penalty, for 10 seconds).

Good luck, GJ

PS -
Decocking with TO permission - is usually only ever needed or given on the cowboy side of the game, for a cocked revolver after all rounds have been fired from it.   You can't put that revolver back in holster cocked.  You can't lay it down cocked.  Either you ask to decock the revolver, or you dry fire it so fast the TO never gets a chance to say "don't decock without asking," or you declare a malfunction because you can't get the hammer to fall.

Trying to prevent decocking is essentially an unnecessary rule chasing an unnecessary action.   Decocking is never really needed in Wild Bunch, because our handgun (the 1911) can be unloaded and left open and empty (slide locked back) pretty easily.   

GJ
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 02:12:49 PM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

Ride hard, shoot straight and speak the truth.    Col. J Cooper
Why else would you want to be here?

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Texas Bart

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Re: Rule application questions - new shooter
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2015, 11:48:15 PM »
I think I've got it now. If not, someone will explain it to me when they give me the P and refer to this section as the reason. Hopefully not in the near future.

Thanks for the help,
Bart