Author Topic: Leading problems in 45 ACP  (Read 7184 times)

J. Frank Norfleet

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Leading problems in 45 ACP
« on: November 23, 2015, 09:38:26 PM »
Here is a question for all you reloading wonks.  Having shot Glocks for years I think that cleaning your pistol is something you do when you have nothing else better to do or if you have a major match.  I have treated my 1911s the same way.  I will go a couple thousand rounds between cleanings (except for a couple drops of oil on the rails if the slide gets sluggish).  I have had no problems.  I will get a half an inch of leading just beyond the throat of my barrel and that is all.  I have used Promo, Red Dot, Tite Group and WST with the same results.

Now there is my neighbor.  He shoots tactical 2 gun matches.  His 1911 will gum up and accuracy will degrade after 200 rounds.  He wants to know why.  He is shooting a hard cast 185 gr bullet on top of 4.5 gr of tite group.  Both of his pistols react the same way, one is Colt and the other is a Kimber.

I have used 230 gr bullets from the same manufacturer for many years and now shoot bullets cast from lead from those bullets recovered from my private range.  So we shoot basically the same alloy.

So why is leading such a problem for him.  I have used Tite Group before so I don't think it is the powder.  We are shooting bullets of the same alloy so I don't think it is the bullets.  Is it the load?
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

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Wild Bodie Tom

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2015, 09:54:18 PM »
Barrel.......... some do, some don't. Crap happens.
or had/has residue builup.
you would be amazed....
Try gettin a rifle barrel cleaned enough to shoot barnes bullets.
once ya do, yes, they will shoot very well indeed.
just an opinion....
and, so far... my glocks seem to shoot okay with the lead bullets I have tried. I do however keep a good eye on it.
hope that helps.
Wild Bodie Tom
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Boggus Deal

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2015, 10:11:47 PM »
I agree with Tom but will add that I think the alloy is too soft for the velocity he is shooting. Or the bullets don't fit well.

Texas Bart

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2015, 11:06:19 PM »
Y'all using the same lube? If he's using pre-lubed bullets lube may be to hard.
Like Bogus said, size. Bullets to small will definitely lead.

Garrison Joe

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 06:14:18 AM »
Size,size, size.  Bullet MUST seal the barrel well or there will be leading with cast bullets. Do a GOOD job of slugging the barrel.  If necessary, Cerrosafe cast the rear end of barrel.   Make the bullet one thousandth over that diameter, and lube with a good lube.   I like White Label BAC or for something not sticky, White Label Carnuba Red.

TOO HARD an alloy - I now shoot 8 Brinell hardness (for the last 2 years) - and get very little leading.   That is about 1.5% antimony, 0.5% tin.   Just about range scrap from ranges where it is primarily pistol lead.   I used to shoot harder .45 slugs, and got leading in the first half inch - at the throat.   That was with 12 to 14 Brinell hardness.

I have also been coming to the conclusion that crimping should not be very tight.  If the mouth of a loaded round is at 0.471", on a typical .452 bullet, that is tight enough.   Taper crimp, of course.

I read a set of guidelines for where the leading occurs and why.  Something like this:
in front of chamber, nowhere else - bullet too hard or undersized (gas cutting past base)
all along the barrel - bullet too soft or lube not working well
only out toward muzzle - lube running out

Even with pistol ammo, there should be a little lube left on the muzzle (a lube star).   If it's dry and dusty out there, lube grooves may not be holding enough, or lube is not working well.  Sub 1000FPS pistol ammo should not be all that hard to make run without leading problems.  And the chamber pressure of .45 auto ammo (about 18K psi) does not demand more than about 10 Brinell MAX hardness.  Shooting "hardball" alloy, at 16 BNH, for what we do in WB?  I've found it a waste of hard lead.

Good luck,GJ
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 10:04:54 AM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Tully Mars

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 08:03:02 AM »
I believe his loads are of low velocity and not excessive velocity, according to Hodgdon's  load data 5.0 grains is the lowest recommended starting point with a velocity of 892 fps. Although that's faster then my 230's at around 750 fps the 230 is going to seal off the chamber much quicker.

I think the leading is caused by the gap difference from end of widest part of the 185 vs 230 reaching the rifled portion of the barrel, thus allowing gas passage and leading.

Personally I would verify the bullet size needed,  increase my powder charge and look at increasing the OAL to help seal off the chamber quicker to limit gas escaping. I'm betting if that bullet can be moved closer to the end of the chamber and pushed out quicker his problems would diminish.

Tully

 

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2015, 05:14:18 AM »
Thank you for all your replies.  I will send the link of this thread to him so he can read it.
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

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Kid Rich

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2015, 10:43:17 AM »
Try the LASC site you will find in detail the causes of leading with low or medium velocity loads. kR

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2015, 01:36:36 PM »
LASC stands for what?
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

Happy Jack

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 02:04:12 PM »
Los Angeles Silhouette Club.  There are some VERY knowledgable lead bullet casters who post information on their website.
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Garrison Joe

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 07:32:41 PM »
Try the LASC site you will find in detail the causes of leading with low or medium velocity loads. kR


Although the main web site for the club has changed to:

http://www.shootingsteel.com/


You will at least for now find their large archive of cast boolit resources at the old location:

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

I sure hope they continue to keep that set of articles available, but I would guess there has been a change of command at the club, and you know how that can go. 

Especially valuable are the articles by Glen Fryxell!  Such as:

From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners

This is a PDF that, if printed as a cast boolit shooter's handbook, would cost probably $30 bucks and be priceless at that price point!  And Chapter 7 is worth it's weight in gold because it dissects the common symptoms and causes AND SOLUTIONS of various types of leading in barrels.  After carefully reading Chapter 7, your shooting buddy will be able to both DESCRIBE the leading he is getting (much better than "the gun gums up") and FIX his leading problems!

Good luck, GJ
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 07:34:53 PM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Boggus Deal

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2015, 07:57:50 AM »
Glen USA good friend of mine and probably knows as much about cast bullets as anybody around.

noylj

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2016, 01:16:44 AM »
I find too many over lube their 1911s and the guns gum up. I think too many folks over lube their guns and they get problems and blame dirty powder. I find almost NO lube works great on all my 1911s--some have over 10000 rounds through them.
If you get leading from the forcing cone on, your bullets are too hard or too small. Somewhere around 10 BHN is ideal for .45 Auto. If using commercial lead bullets, go to mastercastbullets.com, Missouri Bullets, or Penn Bullets and get their "soft" alloy (which are still much harder than needed).
Has your friend ever slugged his barrel to determine the actual groove diameter? This will not only help determine the proper size bullet, but show any tight or loose areas in the bore--either will cause leading.
He should use a lead bullet that is AT LEAST 0.001" larger than groove diameter.
SAAMI specifies a 0.4520" jacketed and 0.4530" lead bullet for .45 Auto. Going larger (0.454" for reloaders) doesn't hurt anything.

Tully Mars

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2016, 08:24:26 AM »
JFN,
Has your friend found his leading issue and if so what does he believe it was?
Tully

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Leading problems in 45 ACP
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2016, 09:08:46 AM »
Tully,
Not yet.
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein