Author Topic: Starting to load for WB  (Read 2746 times)

Paladin Gun For Hire

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Starting to load for WB
« on: May 09, 2016, 07:53:05 AM »
Posted Today, 06:48 AM


I want to keep this simple. I will be using Red Dot powder and 200 Gr. LRNFP for both pistol and rifle (as I said, I want to keep it simple) Need starting point on OAL for the ACP rounds, and same for 45LC. I will be using a Marlin 94C. All ACP brass is large primer. Don't want to get into discussion about different powder or bullets. This is what I have and what I want to shoot. PM me with load data.  Your input will be appreciated. 

August West

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Re: Starting to load for WB
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2016, 08:44:30 AM »
Posted Today, 06:48 AM


I want to keep this simple.

Don't we all?!?!?!

Most lead bullets for the .45 a.c.p. cartridge are slightly rebated, or reduced in diameter where the shank turns into the ogive of the bullet.  That wider part of the shank has to be completely below the mouth of the cartridge case to ensure the bullet does not contact the rifling upon chambering.  A bullet designed for the 45 Long Colt's cartridge will not have this feature and, therefore, will usually not operate consistently in the John Browning Pistol.

So, keeping it simple, you'll need two different bullets -- one for the pistol and one for the rifle.

Your description of the bullet you have as a LRNFP, suggests it is one designed for use in the Long Colt's cartridge.

So, keeping it simple, you'll have to also get some bullets for the a.c.p.  Most of us will suggest 230 grain bullets for reasons that are not so simple, so I'll leave it at that.

If you'll accept the idea that two different bullets are necessary for your Wild Bunch battery of arms, people will be along shortly with loads using Red Dot with a 230 grain, round nose, .45 a.c.p. bullet.

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear.  But, the sooner you get over this hump, the sooner you'll have rounds that will support your Wild Bunch shooting and allow you to have fun with us at the range.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 04:20:42 PM by August West »

Paladin Gun For Hire

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Re: Starting to load for WB
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2016, 10:57:29 AM »
Than you sir, I look forward to their reply.

Legendary Lawman

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Re: Starting to load for WB
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 12:53:24 PM »
August West is right on the money.  I will PM you with my data but you need to chronograph your own loads for power factor.  Do not get the PF too close to the line.  I like to see my PF around 165 or a little more.

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Blackfoot

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Re: Starting to load for WB
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2016, 12:59:35 PM »
I shoot 200gr. LRNFP bullets in both .45ACP and .45 Colt with Red Dot.  My load is 4gr in .45ACP and 5gr in.45Colt.  The exact OAL will depend on your bullet.  Some good recommendations on seating were given in the response concerning OAL.  I have had NO problem running 200gr  LRNFP (sized .452) in both. 

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Garrison Joe

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Re: Starting to load for WB
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 01:30:35 PM »
First - there is NO guarantee that any one .452 diameter bullet will work well in both your 1911 and your rifle.  NO guarantee.   NONE.  But, good news abounds - it's cheaper to buy different bullets than it is to modify guns to shoot a particular bullet real well.  8) ;D

Second - if you want simple, put the 1911 away.   It's not tough, but it's not simple.   It's very fun, but it's not simple like a SAA revolver is simple.




Here's Alliant's published max load for that bullet weight:

45 Auto   200 gr  Lead bullet   1.19   OAL       Red Dot   4.5grains        831 FPS

That is the velocity (or very slightly slower) you want for Wild Bunch, as it translates to 166 Power Factor. 

Your cartridge OAL will depend upon what feeds and chambers well in your 1911.  Be aware, there may be problems with the front driving band and first section of the rounded nose jamming tight into the rifling, as the 45 auto barrel is cut with NO throat at all before the rifling starts.  You don't EVER want that jamming into the rifling to occur.   A tight slug raises pressure, and a tight slug can be pulled out of the case when you clear the pistol with a live round in the chamber!   And a slug touching the rifling lands is just a smidgen away from not chambering all the way, leading to a round that will not fire, and has to be ejected, and probably made up at some time.

Seat your first loads at an OverAll Length (OAL) to put the mouth of the case right where the front driving band starts to turn into the round nose.   Ignore any crimp groove that may be on the slug, crimp into the top edge of the driving band.   Taper crimp, which is what a good 45 auto crimp die produces, so that the mouth is taken down from the slight expander belling down to about 0.471" (no tighter than 0.470") diameter right at the mouth.

Load only five or ten, then go shoot.   If the bullet won't chamber the last 1/16", but will seat with a firm slap on the rear of the slide, seat slightly deeper.  If bullet sticks with the nose on the feed ramp, you may need to shape and polish the ramp (a job better left to gunsmith until you gain experience with it). 

If bullet jams with a 3-point jam, you may have a poor quality magazine.  Colt, Tripp or McCormick mags remove the doubt about that.

If you still have a problem feeding, and the bullet's flat point is very broad, you probably have a feed-ramp/barrel throating problem.   

Starting 10% under Alliant's max load, you might start at 4.1 grains of RD.  Work your way up.  You WILL need to shoot your load over a chronograph, as velocity/power factor is watched closely at major Wild Bunch matches.  And each 1911 shoots the same load to different velocities. 

When you get a good PF, good extraction, good feeding, good accuracy, and a good feeling - stop, you are probably done!

Good luck, GJ
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 07:48:15 AM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Griff

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Re: Starting to load for WB
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 02:30:09 PM »
Posted Today, 06:48 AM
I want to keep this simple. I will be using Red Dot powder and 200 Gr. LRNFP for both pistol and rifle (as I said, I want to keep it simple) Need starting point on OAL for the ACP rounds, and same for 45LC. I will be using a Marlin 94C. All ACP brass is large primer. Don't want to get into discussion about different powder or bullets. This is what I have and what I want to shoot. PM me with load data.  Your input will be appreciated.
I load both my 45Colt & 45ACP with RedDot &, the SAME 200 LRNFP bullet.  (IIRC, these are cast with a Magma Engineering mold # 45-200-BB, the bevel is VERY small).  Seating depth may vary on different bullets, but mine are seated to a point where they just cover the crimp groove on the bullets I buy.  OAL is 1.177"  I don't crimp them beyond the start of the ogive, as then the crimp may be too great for them to headspace properly.  USE a case gauge.  I've had no trouble with them making power factor here locally.  A different altitude may require a different formula.

I find that I need to flare the mouth of the 45ACP a tad more than with the jacketed HPs I also load in that cartridge.  In the ACP I use 4.0 grains and in the 45Colt I use 6.0 grains.  In the 45Colt I crimp at the forward edge of the groove, in order to facilitate them feeding thru a variety of 45Colt rifles.  OAL on these are 1.566" and feed thru an 1860, two different era 1873s and a Rossi 1892. 

To keep it really simple, I've also used the C45S brass for a rifle retimed for it... so I can keep my powder charge bullet and dies all the same, just change the shellplate on my Dillon.  But, that brass has become rather expensive and now I keep it for cowboy loads in the pistol.  But, boy, was that good while it lasted.

Lyman's 49th Cast Bullet Handbook list 45Colt rifle loads using RedDot, at a minimum of 5.6 grains for 1002 and a max of 7.0 for 1176 fps.  This is listed as out of a Winchester 94AE with a 16" barrel.  However, 45Colt rifle chambers are generous... and below 6.0 grains I've been too close for comfort on the power factor.  Sized at .452 isn't a problem, as I've found that if my front sight has been on the target, the bullet arrived there also.

My actual velocities from my guns varies from that quite a bit.  I thought I had a chart of actual velocities, but it's for a different bullet & charge.

Did find a pic of the bullet, 4th from left:

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Grouchy Spike

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Re: Keeping it simple
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 06:47:57 PM »
I learned in the school of hard knocks that seating and crimping should be done in separate operations to eliminate problems!  Particularly on 45 acp.  YMMV.
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Branchwater Jack - 88854

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Re: Starting to load for WB
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 08:48:45 AM »
Another issue to be aware of...the ogive angle in most of the 200gn RNFP is less than a 230gn round nose and may cause slide issues.

Under recoil, the bullets in the magazine may scoot forward a tad and the nose of a bullet in the magazine may come in contact with the slide catch, engaging it with the nose of the bullet.

My wife's new pistol had this issue out of the box. A few passes and some polishing to adjust the angle on the grip side of the slide stop to ensure that the bullet would not catch on it cleared it up.

Was at a match a couple weeks ago where someone shooting a new gun with 200gn RNFP also had the same issue.

So if you have the slide locking back after 3 or 4 shots and no other signs or issues, that is something else to check.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:55:19 AM by Branchwater Jack - 88854 »

VICIOUS

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Re: Starting to load for WB
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 07:23:12 PM »
HI Gang; I have found the big chamber in Marlin 45 colt hard to seal up and stop the powder from blowing back over the bolt and into my eyes with 200 grain bullets. This was fixed by 250 grain bullets.