Author Topic: What would YOU suggest?  (Read 3525 times)

Tully Mars

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2017, 10:47:20 PM »
Good points TM.   
Locked and cocked? 
Let's see:
  I shoot USPSA and we start locked and cocked.
I shoot IDPA and we start locked and cocked
I shoot 3 gun and we start locked and cocked
I shoot Action pistol and we start locked and cocked
I shoot Steel Challenge and we start locked and cocked
HELP ME UNDERSTAND
and besides, more women might shoot if we would start locked and cocked.
Back 40,

Just being clear,  I wasn't recommending locked and cocked.

Tully
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 05:25:34 PM by Tully Mars »

Back 40

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2017, 07:13:53 AM »
No problem Tully, the bold wasn't directed at your comment and sorry for the caps, just trying to make a point.
Thanks for the comments.

Tully Mars

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2017, 06:40:10 AM »
Back 40,

I didn't notice the "bold", just wanted to be clear that I wasn't suggesting "locked & cocked", that's all. As usual I could have found a better way to state it.

Tully

Grouchy Spike

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2017, 02:18:22 PM »
What would YOU suggest to get more folks interested in shooting Wild Bunch?
PLEASE DO NOT START A PRAIRIE FIRE!!!

Great question, and I motion that we make efforts to address it by understanding what drives or doesn't drive the cowboy shooters into WBAS. WBAS is not offering enough Value.

Every decision we make is guided by Value.

The Benefit minus the Cost is the Value.

More thoughts later after a visit to the gunsmith to remove the slide aperture screw on the 03A3 that I broke attempting to swap to a smaller aperture. 
Run - Hide - Call?  Forget it !  Draw - Aim - Shoot

Back 40

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2017, 08:04:00 AM »
What would YOU suggest to get more folks interested in shooting Wild Bunch?
PLEASE DO NOT START A PRAIRIE FIRE!!!

Great question, and I motion that we make efforts to address it by understanding what drives or doesn't drive the cowboy shooters into WBAS. WBAS is not offering enough Value.

Every decision we make is guided by Value.

The Benefit minus the Cost is the Value.

More thoughts later after a visit to the gunsmith to remove the slide aperture screw on the 03A3 that I broke attempting to swap to a smaller aperture.

I sooooooo agree with you GS

Buffalo Dick WB

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2017, 10:41:03 AM »
I think we just need to have regular matches and work harder to promote the sport.  I think the rules are fine and shouldn't be easily changed without compelling evidence that a rule change would have a significant change in participation without overly diluting the game.

I've heard the complaint about not loading seven in the magazine, but I seriously doubt that changing that would result in a significant increase in participants.  Same thing with the power factor, present legal loads are not what I would call stout and I would hate to see the race to the bottom that we've seen in CAS loads over the years.

Most all WBAS shooters come from CAS and we often use target arrays set up for cowboy action, with stages written by people who write CAS stages.  Five in a mag works well.  Non-WBAS sports utilizing the 1911 usually permit tactical reloads as well-do we want to go there?  One of the interesting things about CAS and, to a lessor degree, WBAS, is that for many shooters, this is their first shooting sport and they are not really "gun people."  I would bet we would see a lot more penalties, both procedural and safety, if we went to seven rounds.

We had a WB side match at the Ohio State match two weeks ago and had two full posses and everyone had a blast.  Another shooter and I were even talking about how it is a bit more challenging to shoot a big bore rifle than a .38 and how we liked that.  I suspect that there are a lot of big bore rifles sitting around that could be bought since a lot of shooters started with .45's and later went to the more competitive .38.  In any event, assembling the equipment for WBAS is a lot cheaper than say, Classic Cowboy.

WB isn't for everyone but I think a lot of shooters would like it if they tried it.  I personally would prefer a smaller match with like minded shooters, than a larger watered down "WB Lite" shooting "whatever," but that's just me.

Back 40, I had really hoped to make the Illinois state match at Sparta, but a local club was having a WB match that same weekend and I wanted to support the local club. Sorry, I missed it.

Kid Rich

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2017, 01:49:53 PM »
Yep
kR

Sgt Eli

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2017, 11:22:31 AM »
I would take the rifle completely out and focus on the 1911 and shotgun, then the mags could be loaded to capacity. I am not seeing any growth in Wild Bunch in our area, it is stagnant at best, if something isn't working, time to try something different.

Allie Mo

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2017, 11:51:48 AM »
Hi 40!

If I were "calling the shots" (pun intended) and wanted to grow WBAS, I would have a category where a semi-auto pistol was allowed at SASS matches.  :o Basically, it would be SASS with a semi-auto pistol. You could be flexible about the rifle caliber too. (Don't tell HJ that I wrote this. ;) )

We have a dedicated WBAS club at my home venue. There are several WBAS shooters who never shoot SASS and one who sold his SASS guns and only shoots WBAS, IDPA...

If this category brought in sufficient new shooters, maybe some day, you could have a dedicated by-the-rules WBAS club.

Regards,

AM
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lostvaquero

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2017, 10:17:57 AM »
Hi 40!

If I were "calling the shots" (pun intended) and wanted to grow WBAS, I would have a category where a semi-auto pistol was allowed at SASS matches.  :o Basically, it would be SASS with a semi-auto pistol. You could be flexible about the rifle caliber too. (Don't tell HJ that I wrote this. ;) )

We have a dedicated WBAS club at my home venue. There are several WBAS shooters who never shoot SASS and one who sold his SASS guns and only shoots WBAS, IDPA...

If this category brought in sufficient new shooters, maybe some day, you could have a dedicated by-the-rules WBAS club.

Regards,

AM

I see something of the same.  WBAS here has maybe five to eight and I am not sure how many are even interested.  I do know that some Cowboy shooters do not like the idea of having to do another rifle or shotgun.  I know some cowboy shooters would not like that but I think most would not care as long as things are scored differently.  The big argument has been that most TO/ROs are not trained on semi-autos.  That would be something that would have to be changed. 

One club did something like this though for a bit and not sure why it dropped off (I am thinking WB came along but it was before I started with the club) called Turn of the Century cowboy.  Same cowboy setup as the cowboy shooters but instead of two single action revolvers it was any semi-auto up to about 1917.  Of course that would be something SASS would have to decide on. 

However whether that would draw more people to WB or not is not certain.  CAS is having enough trouble with keeping its numbers up, most of the cowboys including me are getting on and while I see some younger folks (less than 50) come around by far most younger shooters are heading off to 3 gun.  It is what they are used to seeing.  I have tried 3 gun but my knees and hips cannot take some of the scenarios.  That being said, I have sometimes gone to 3 gun and instead taken my cowboy or WB guns instead.  I am not competitive at all and with the cowboy guns definitely puts me at the bottom.  However, I see a few of the younger crowd watch and start asking questions.  A few ask about CAS and I tell them about that and also WB which might appeal to being used to semi crowd.  Flipping open a schofield has gotten a few to go "OH WOW! I did not know they could do that!"  I have talked to the local 3 gun match director and he indicated that enough (3 or more) people want to shoot the scenarios with cowboy style guns he would call it a separate scoring category almost like the Western 3 gun. 

Well off the soapbox now.


Grouchy Spike

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2017, 12:45:58 PM »
I don't have a suggestion yet, but continue to gather information and living in Texas I look at activity at area clubs in South Central Texas - Houston and a bit north; Austin area; San Antonio area.

The 2017 OK State WB match attracted about 37 shooters, and 18 or so participated in the Bolt Action Military Rifle Side Match.  Awesome turnout!

The 2016 TX State WB match attracted 13 shooters; the 2015 scores weren't posted but I don't remember that more than 20 participated; the 2014 match attracted 24, and the 2013 match attracted 23.  This is in a state with what is likely the most cowboy clubs in the US (don't know about membership numbers). 

What is different between the OK and TX shooters and hosting clubs that the OK WB match is so well attended and the TX State match in 2016 attracted only 13?  What is the OK club doing to promote the sport that Texas is not?

Is there a core group of IDPA or such competitors at that OK club that includes the CAS and WBAS shooters?

When I talk to cowboys about WB, some have no interest in semiautos. Some have 1911s but haven't committed to shooting WB and seldom shoot their 1911s.  Some enjoy CAS to the extent that they play nothing else.  Some observed the difficulties encountered with 1911 and 1897s and want no part of that.  Some don't want to bother with learning how to reload 45 acp and how to participate in WBAS matches.  Many cowboys don't like those distant WB targets - can't shoot as fast as in CAS matches, have more misses and other penalties.  Less gratification!

Next question to ask cowboys:  What would tempt you to join WBAS? 

Cowboy 1911 category in a CAS match shoots CLOSE targets, few participate, so that objection of target distance seems insincere if the cowboys don't pick up a 1911 with which to play and earn that bang-clang gratification.

Observations:

Plum Creek (Lockhart) hosted a WB match on a Sunday after a Saturday CAS match.  Six shooters played.

Willow Hole Cowboys (North Zulch) allows full WB game inside of a CAS match - adds two magazines and shoots those at cowboy rifle targets, so ten pistol targets are a bit close - but fun!  Stokes four shotgun.  Three of us played WB in the last two matches.

Green Mountain Regulators (Marble Falls) allow one to shoot Cowboy 1911 during a CAS match. I've been the lone slide action shooter.

Texican Rangers (Comfort) allow one to shoot Cowboy 1911 during a CAS match.  Usually I'm alone or there are two of us, but Sunday there were three of us.

Texican Rangers host two WB matches a year on 5th Saturday. Ten of us played in April.  I don't recall ever having enough for two posses.

Texas Riviera Pistoleros (George West, south of San Antonio) host four WB matches a year.  Six to eight play, and this is a significant share of their membership.  Compliments to them!

The Tejas Caballeros (Blanco, north of San Antonio) have hosted WB matches in years past, turnout is low, and they've not tried again in 2016 or 2017 but they have relocated their range which is enough distraction.  Whether they gin up in the future I can't predict.

Thunder River Renegades (northwest Houston) last hosted WBAS in 2015, eleven played. I didn't find other WBAS scores.

Old Fort Parker Patriots (north of Waco) haven't posted any WB scores, likely because they don't have any WB matches.

Oakwood (between Dallas and Houston) hosts a WB match on the Monday after their weekend matches.  Six play, as many as eight.  That might be a tough match in which to play as those who are working can't play.

South Texas Pistolaros (San Antonio) are ramping up their WBAS games, hosting what I think is the second one this year although a four stage match instead of five stages.   As Dusty Boddams says, one must bring the parishioners into the 'church' before they can be 'baptized' and STPs are doing that.  This upcoming WBAS match will conflict with a CAS match at the Tejas Cabs.

These are observations and comments, no criticism is intended, apologies if anyone is offended.  I don't want to throw bombs.  Well, maybe enough to uncover the perceived value and look at what is happening.

This is an attempt determine how to INCREASE the value of WBAS for CAS shooters.   To make a plan to make progress, we must know from where we start.

Maybe we should post this thread on the SASS cowboy forum?  That would ask a whole bunch of cowboys?  Great idea, even if I say so myself.  Or has this already been done?  I don't follow that forum closely.

Discussion is welcomed!  Flames too!  Smoke away.

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Grouchy Spike

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2017, 01:09:39 PM »
I liked my idea so much about asking the cowboys and cowgirls about WBAS that I submitted a post on the SASS forum.  Maybe they will help us increase the value of WBAS for them.

Follow here:

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/263411-cowboyscowgirls-why-dont-you-shoot-wild-bunch/
Run - Hide - Call?  Forget it !  Draw - Aim - Shoot

Garrison Joe

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2017, 01:20:03 PM »
EOT is apparently on track to have its largest WB match ever starting Saturday.
WR had it's largest WB match ever last February.

Both get advertised heavily, both are conducted as stand-alone WB matches, with their own awards.  Both totally separated from the Cowboy match so pards can easily shoot one or both.   

Maybe it's that folks won't shoot WB unless they have to pay extra and come on another day?   :o ;)   Just joking.

I think it's the visibility and promotion of WB that suffers at individual clubs.   Many Cowboy club officials seem unwilling to even talk up a WB match at their own facility.

Good luck, GJ



« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 02:48:52 PM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Ted88160

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2017, 04:45:19 PM »
Afternoon fellas, wanted to reply, before I head out for EOT. My home club, Pawnee Station, at Great Guns Sporting in Nunn, Colorado, holds a monthly Wild Bunch match the Sunday after the 3rd Saturday cowboy match. I have been writing and setting up the stages for the last 3 years.  My scenarios are written for 7 round magazines. Round count for a match is usually between 150 to 200 acp. Stages vary between 21 rounds to 35 rounds of acp. Once in a great while I'll throw in a 42 round pistol only stage.  We enjoy 6 stages of Wild Bunch on these Sundays. We don't have a big following, but we're happy to get 8 to 10 shooters. Sometimes more sometimes less. My rifle count varies from 5 rounds per stage to 10, shotgun no less than 4, mostly 5 or 6 rounds per stage. We also have a variety of targets, dueling trees to standard targets, to 2 new target sets (tombstone rack and a cowboy plate rack), yet to be used. We are starting to see some new interest from the local "all auto shooters". Target sets are the same for cowboy, just moved back some. Might add a couple here and there, but setup is simple and less strenuous for a two day shoot. Just my 2 cents worth. You're all invited to come out to Pawnee for the Colorado State Championship, September 30th & October 1st. Fun with a 1911, the Colorado way.
TriggerHappy Ted #88160

Grouchy Spike

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2017, 07:13:36 PM »
Thanks for your replies to this thread.

Check out the response on the SASS Wire when I questioned cowboys and cowgirls about why they didn't shoot WBAS. That is interesting and informative, some information that WBAS can use to expand the game.  Hopefully the responses will continue, and we consider them and act on them.

Father Kit Cool Gun Garth added some humor and I'm still laughing about his reply!

THT, you delivered a bunch of information in your post.  I want to ponder that.  Good luck at EOT!

GJ mentions publicity, or lack of it  - good thought.
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