Author Topic: What would YOU suggest?  (Read 3623 times)

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2017, 05:20:44 AM »
Grouchy Spike, I took your advice and read your thread on the SASS wire. It was very interesting to say the least. There are the usual "I want to shoot this gun" types. e.g.. Luger, Broomhandle, SxS, Glock and etc. They are plinkers and don't add to a competitive sport. What was interesting was the number of comments by serious cowboy competitors who are not interested because of the 5 rounds in the mag limitation. WB is too much like shooting cowboy with a 1911.

GS, I do think you need broaden your horizons. You framed the question on the SASS wire, "Cowboys and cowgirls, several of us Wild Bunch Action Shooters are having a discussion on the Wild Bunch forum about how to increase the value of Wild Bunch Action Shooting to attract more CAS shooters into the WBAS game. . . . " Do we really want to limit the growth of WB to CAS shooters? SASS membership is aging and declining. Not the kind of demographic that anyone wants to market to.
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Grouchy Spike

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2017, 07:24:19 AM »
" Do we really want to limit the growth of WB to CAS shooters? SASS membership is aging and declining. Not the kind of demographic that anyone wants to market to.

JFN, you make a good point.  I solicited comments from the CAS shooters because they are members of SASS or shoot at SASS events if not SASS members. Increasing their participation into another SASS event should increase the value of their membership in or association with SASS clubs and might attract more shooters to WBAS.

I am not familiar with the IPSC and similar disciplines, so I'd not be qualified to talk intelligently to those shooters.  Someone who plays or has played with them should undertake a survey with them.  I've watched a few videos so I'd be what's called 'an internet expert'. 

Their stages are inside berms, a different setup compared to CAS ranges with which I am familiar.    They run multiple stages simultaneously and independently of each other.  Those setups allow the shooter to move downrange while shooting, and then they declare a downrange to score and tape their paper or cardboard targets.  There is much more movement, different rules, different weapons, higher ammo count compared to WBAS that our game should seem almost boring to the IPSC type shooter.  Our game should require a nearly complete makeover to morph into the IPSC type game, and that might add competition to an already satisfied market. That change would not offer a revolutionary different game to anyone.

I don't think that we can make such significant or revolutionary changes that would drive WBAS further from CAS. 

7-round magazines, M1917 revolvers would be the most evolutionary change for WBAS, additional gauges and calibers less so.   Those changes would not move WBAS far from where it is now, might attract additional shooters.

I haven't had coffee yet, so maybe my thoughts are muddled.  Your comments? 

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August West

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2017, 10:12:52 AM »
  Your comments?

Deconstructing any concept is simple and easy and cerebral compared to the work of assembling (reassembling) the pieces into a coherent whole. 

Anecdotal remarks about the elements of Wild Bunch, offered by individuals who do not participate in Wild Bunch, have been stated regularly in many forums where where such deconstruction has been entertained.  The nature of those remarks hasn't changed over the years -- rifle caliber, magazine capacity, shot string, antique automatic pistols, money, time, the rules.   When those issues have been accommodated publicly, at matches, and in discussions, the people who originally made the remarks have been no more inclined to come out and participate than before.  The conclusion: such discussions hold no value for enhancing Wild Bunch.

On the other hand, building something that is attractive, dependable, and practical is hard work.  Making a commitment to regular monthly matches, advertising those matches, supporting the people who participate in those matches, and listening to their reactions and concerns all lead to participation.   

Not to say the glass is half-full.  It's probably more like 20% full.  But, that's real and important and positive.  There are dedicated Wild Bunch shooters who love this game and want it to continue.  The concerns of individuals who cared not to walk through the doorway labeled "Wild Bunch" are of little importance.

I feel the discussion on the SASS Wire is ill-advised, leading to more inertia among cowboy shooters, and galvanizing sentiment against Wild Bunch Action Shooting.  You asked!

There are a thousand reasons to sit on the sofa, rather than participate in a shooting sport.   It's not smart to support that thinking.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 05:47:39 PM by August West »

lostvaquero

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2017, 11:25:12 AM »
August you make a very valid point.  It is advertising and showing what is there that will get more people going then anything else.

I have gone to a 3 gun match with cowboy guns.  People love it, asked questions and several expressed interest but the bottom line came down to they had already invested a ton of money in their 3 guns and just could not justify buying more (or that was the excuse).  Due to hip and joint problems I have given up 3 gun and sold off most of the equipment and that is what brought me to WBAS.  I do CAS, and WBAS seemed like a good step back from 3 gun but still a bit different than CAS.

I am not sure how many people one can draw from IPDA, IPSC or 3 gun.  The later to me at least is really a young person's sport, so maybe as everyone starts getting the aches and realizes that sliding through barrels is not working as it used to might like me find something else.  Then that leaves the other pool of people which is the sport that WB grew out of and that is the SASS/CAS folks.

As you mentioned acomendations have been given but I am not sure how many places do that or how well it is made known to some of the CAS only crowd.  A lot of people do look at the handbooks and just end up shrugging going 'Well ain't going to buy another rifle" or whatever.  A lot to think about and I have no real answer but I do give a lot of kudos to Grouchy for putting the topic out there and getting the talking and thinking going.

And after having some good strong tea and rereading a lot on the Wire I will agree that the 5 round in the mag has been mentioned but plenty mentioned that the start of WB pre-formal SASS sounded a lot more fun.  Sure some of those 1917 revolvers and lugers might be plinkers, but in my opinion that is like saying using a replica open top colt or cap and ball pistol is just plinking because if your really serious you would be using a set of rugers and a 73.  There are a lot of people who shoot CAS because they want to have fun and do not worry about being in the top five overall shooters.   A couple more categories to me would not hurt. 

As for drawing only from SASS folks I agree but I think that is still where a majority will come from.  Most of the younger (20s and 30s) that I have been around could care less about dressing up, wearing boots that kind of thing.  The fact that some of the higher placed shooters sport shirts covered in logos and sponsors, with baseball caps and shorts is almost a uniform.

To me CAS/WBAS suffers from not enough exposure and of course the fact that the Western has not been a major theme on TV or in the theaters for a long time with few exceptions.  While I know a lot do not like the sci-fi theme of HBO Westworld, the fact that it has caught on gives exposure.  You might not get to shoot life like androids but come on down people, and pretend your in Westworld, let's see those six gun skills.  Oh you want a bit more fun?  Well step right this way...we call it Wild Bunch.

Sorry, off the soapbox again.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 10:34:34 AM by lostvaquero »

Grouchy Spike

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2017, 01:34:44 PM »
Good discussion! 

"The conclusion: such discussions hold no value for enhancing Wild Bunch."  Could be, but I didn't see much happening to stimulate growth and I'm ready to stimulate at least some conversation!

Some comments on the SASS wire may be insincere comments and even if overcome the commenter would not play WBAS no matter what.  Local WBAS matches can offer an Open Category address the rifle caliber and shotgun type and even gauge, so those objections can be overcome.

5-rounds vs 7-rounds may be debated forever, but that does not seem to be in insurmountable challenge.  Start with FIVE!  Test interest in seven rounds in a subsequent match.

THIS!!!  "On the other hand, building something that is attractive, dependable, and practical is hard work.  Making a commitment to regular monthly matches, advertising those matches, supporting the people who participate in those matches, and listening to their reactions and concerns all lead to participation. " 

The comments that address a lack of WB matches are revealing.  It's the local interest that will start a WBAS group. Nothing happens otherwise.  How to gin up the interest of the club members is now the focus.  If the WB requirements are strictly adhered to and the potential market doesn't have the gear and doesn't want to commit money to address it, likely nothing happens. 

If the requirements are relaxed and some of the reluctant market drags out some safe queens that won't ever meet the requirements, we at least have the reluctant share of the market shooting a game other than CAS and headed toward WBAS.

Inviting other potential customers to drag up and shoot a scenario with borrowed weapons can stimulate interest.  I'm not addressing the legal liability incurred by the lender in this situation. That's an individual decision.

The learning curve on operation of the 1911 particularly in malfunction drills is a poisonous snake in the grass, particularly when coupled with potential ammo problems reloaded by a newbie to reloading 45 acp.  I can understand how a newbie would become discouraged.

Target distance has not been addressed in many responses.  That may be another poisonous snake in the grass because an inexperienced 1911 shooter may have (will have) more misses than in CAS if targets are set further out than CAS targets.  Solution - begin with closer targets.

It's important that new participants be mentored during this climb up the learning curve. Operation, Maintenance, and light repairs of the 1911 and that often 'praised' 1897, choice and maintenance of 1911 magazines, reloading techniques, practice, shooting techniques, etc must be taught and learned.

So not only must WBAS be talked up locally and advertised, the effort may cost money and will cost time to those making the effort to introduce the game or to increase participation.

How do we encourage and support those potential disciples who would initiate the local efforts?

Some of those are revealing their identities on that SASS thread.  As a start, perhaps they could be contacted and mentored through this process of introducing and sustaining WBAS.

Perhaps SASS should appoint a WBAS Product Manager to do this?  That person may already exist as Happy Jack! If so, how can we support him?

I have more questions than answers.  But I do have some limited experience.

Dusty Boddams, at the 2014 Texas State WB Match, put a BAM rifle and ammo in my hands and said "shoot"!  That hooked me.  At the home club I talked it up among some cowboys and two cowboys pulled out some old bolts. Then I asked the president about starting a BAM side match, and he agreed.  I spent a few rounds of ammo on introductions to others, and  since February 2015 the group has grown to seventeen and two clubs are shooting BAM.  Even the president showed up with his Mauser to join the group.

August West hit the nail on the head about expanding participation!  Now comes the propoal - August, can you join the effort to expand participation? 

Lost Vaquero, you may be a newbie on a soapbox but you also have The Vision.  Can you join the effort too?

Send me a PM, let's exchange email addresses and make something happen.  And that invitation is extended to anyone else who want to make something happen.  I have only a rudimentary plan, but I have a vision! Happy Jack, chime in.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 01:43:41 PM by Grouchy Spike »
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Grouchy Spike

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2017, 12:54:52 PM »
What would YOU suggest to get more folks interested in shooting Wild Bunch?
PLEASE DO NOT START A PRAIRIE FIRE!!!

Back 40, the question that I posed in this SASS thread didn't start a prairie fire, more like it started a wave.  If you've not stayed abreast of it:

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/263411-cowboyscowgirls-what-would-attract-you-to-wild-bunch/
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Back 40

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2017, 09:58:33 AM »
Thanks for the update Grouchy Spike.    I just rolled in from E.O.T. Wild Bunch Championship late last night and am catching up on a lot of info.   GREAT comments here!!!   I am passionate about Wild Bunch and got the chance to meet some great folks who share my interest.   
Just a few of the things I came away with from EOT:

Almost everyone I talked to was in favor of 7 over 5.   We'll see

"WE", that is, Cowboy Action Shooters AND Wild Bunch Shooters, MUST ALL START SUPPORTING EACH OTHER!!!!!!   What really grips me is when I hear Cowboy Shooters knock Wild Bunch shooters.  WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    LET'S START SUPPORTING EACH OTHER.   THERE IS NO NEED TO BASH SOMEONE ELSE'S SHOOTING SPORT!!

And finally, I would like to see more support and promotion from the SASS Office.   I realize they are busy.   But WB is and "income" to them.   Enough said.

WOW, the EOT WB match was AWESOME!!! 

Grouchy Spike

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2017, 12:54:08 PM »
Back 40, good to hear that you enjoy the 'sliding' in WBAS matches! 

I prefer to slide, but if the choice is revolve or stay home, I'll revolve.  More shooting is usually always better except at 90F+, where the mind is willing but the body ain't.

So are you gonna promote more club involvement in WBAS matches and side matches?  I don't recall your home state, hopefully they have a state WB match in which to play.

Run - Hide - Call?  Forget it !  Draw - Aim - Shoot

lostvaquero

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Re: What would YOU suggest?
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2017, 08:16:18 AM »
Thanks for the update Grouchy Spike.    I just rolled in from E.O.T. Wild Bunch Championship late last night and am catching up on a lot of info.   GREAT comments here!!!   I am passionate about Wild Bunch and got the chance to meet some great folks who share my interest.   
Just a few of the things I came away with from EOT:

Almost everyone I talked to was in favor of 7 over 5.   We'll see

"WE", that is, Cowboy Action Shooters AND Wild Bunch Shooters, MUST ALL START SUPPORTING EACH OTHER!!!!!!   What really grips me is when I hear Cowboy Shooters knock Wild Bunch shooters.  WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    LET'S START SUPPORTING EACH OTHER.   THERE IS NO NEED TO BASH SOMEONE ELSE'S SHOOTING SPORT!!

And finally, I would like to see more support and promotion from the SASS Office.   I realize they are busy.   But WB is and "income" to them.   Enough said.

WOW, the EOT WB match was AWESOME!!!


I agree on the mutual support.  I am not sure if CAS shooters knock WB shooters though.  After reading and participating in the discussion most CAS shooters seem to be knocking the current setup of WB. 

My quick summary take was what was started as a fun unofficial side match went to restrictive.
If youndo not like the current WB rules then do not play, so must did exactly that.
Some said interested but no WB match nearby.
The questions remained of what to do.

Suggestions ran on the former from complete rule change back to pre official rule days, major and minor categories, open class to just allowb 38 rifle.

As for the later a bit less suggestions but seemed most ended up centering on running a regular CAS match and having or letting persons use a 1911 or WB movie pistol or revolver instead to drum up interest.

A few feathers got ruffled but overall my impression was CAS would like to see WB grow.