Author Topic: Scoring  (Read 2132 times)

Two Dot

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Scoring
« on: July 13, 2017, 06:52:04 PM »
Since no one else brought this up.
Are we going to scrap stage point scoring
and go with total time now that SASS has done so?
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Boggus Deal

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 07:07:28 PM »
Not if I have a say! All other action shooting sports use a rank/stage point scoring system. Going to total time is yet another reason cowboy action will continue to be the laughing stock of shooting sports. WBAS is a shooting sport, not just a speed event of how fast can you hit barn doors with the muzzles of your guns.

Two Dot

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 08:02:56 PM »
No offense, but until we put scoring zones on the targets your comparison isn't valid.
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Silvertip

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2017, 08:35:55 PM »
Total time

Boggus Deal

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 09:15:37 PM »
No offense, but until we put scoring zones on the targets your comparison isn't valid.
First, my friend, no offense here! We are more adult than to be offended by an opinion. But what has the the targets got to do with the scoring system? Having shot 3 gun, USPCA and IDPA I get the scoring zones and while I would like to see more difficult targets, like Western 3gun, the scoring is still the scoring. Always open for opinions, comments, ideas and suggestions!

Two Dot

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 09:42:02 PM »
The stage points system was a compromise to allow us something closer to total time when it was rank points or nothing. That time has passed. Until we have scoring zones it is either full points or none. Hit or miss. Total time covers this in a more simple manor. This will avoid many of the scoring "anomalies" that seem to plague our major matches.
Maybe we should see what our shooters prefer?
Two Dot
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marshal stone

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2017, 01:21:58 PM »

If we are going to stay with the stage point scoring, as much as it pains me to say so, I think we need to consider doing away with the so called "overall" winners. This is were the "anomalies" appear to come in. Two cases in point, 1. a third place finisher in category wins overall for that gender. 2. the second place finisher in another category finished 3 positions ahead of the category winner in the overall.

It is confusing the hell out of a lot of people how this can happen.

It's like we are using two different scoring methods, one in category and another for overall.

Marshal Stone

Samuel B Carpenter

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2017, 01:27:33 PM »
Weeel, for us simple guys with enough problems counting using fingers when adding 2+2

We like to use total time

In the end total time gives the same answer in a single category or when mixing them all together

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KingSnake

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2017, 02:20:02 PM »
I'll keep shooting WB no matter what does or doesn't change.
But I do prefer Total Time. JMHO


KS

Tully Mars

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2017, 06:39:59 AM »
Total Time would be my preference.
Tully

Allie Mo

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2017, 09:37:46 AM »
Total Time Scoring please.

I don't really care if we are laughed at.

At least with total time, a person who is third in their category with a SDQ, can't be first overall. I heard that happened at EOT.

Regards,

Allie
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J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2017, 05:47:18 PM »
I strongly disagree! TT essentially gives a shooter with a SDQ a MDQ.

Yes, rank points was the worst scoring system I have ever seen. It should have been gone years ago. I think that it is a mistake for SASS to go to TT, they should have gone to stage points.

Stage Points is the closest you can get to total time and still give a shooter with a SDQ a fair score. In stage points an SDQ earns a no time, just what they got. In rank points an SDQ got 999.99 seconds (i.e. the max of rank points) and now in TT they get a penalty of 5 seconds a target with 30 seconds added. So not only does an SDQ in SASS get no time, an SDQ becomes a penalty of 150 seconds on a 10-10 & 4 stage! Stage points removed the SDQ penalty of both rank points and total time.

I hope that this doesn't sound too offensive but I need to say it anyway. Over the years I have read a lot of the posts advocating TT. I have grown tired of folks advocating TT simply because they can't do simple math. I would rather have a scoring system that is fair to all shooters including the one who earns an SDQ than one that caters to the lowest level of math abilities of the shooting population. Stage points is that scoring system.
JFN
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 05:49:11 PM by J. Frank Norfleet »
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Two Dot

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2017, 06:20:10 PM »
Mr. Nor fleet I can do basic math and then some. I disagree when you want to ease the impact of a safety infraction serious enough to earn a stage DQ. 5 seconds per target + 30 seconds does not equal a match DQ.
I'm fine with disagreeing but don't insult my intelligence by saying I cannot do basic math.
Two Dot
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Tully Mars

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2017, 06:47:57 AM »
The problem isn't simple math, the problem is understanding how shooters can go from third to overall winner. Personally I think there's nothing wrong with the current system or with the results of EOT. The final results recognize how well each shooter shot in regards to those in their category and overall against everyone else. As long as we offer overall and category winners shooters placement may change.

I do however like TT because it's simply straight forward and would eliminate the "perception of unfairness". Or get rid of overall winner, which doesn't seem right either.

Tully




J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 07:35:56 AM »
The problem isn't simple math, the problem is understanding how shooters can go from third to overall winner. Personally I think there's nothing wrong with the current system or with the results of EOT. The final results recognize how well each shooter shot in regards to those in their category and overall against everyone else. As long as we offer overall and category winners shooters placement may change.

I do however like TT because it's simply straight forward and would eliminate the "perception of unfairness". Or get rid of overall winner, which doesn't seem right either.

Tully

In the results of any match you have overall results and category results posted. Anytime you resort from category to overall you shift the point value of a shooter's time on a stage. Example:Capitan Regulator won Traditional. In the category results he got a 100% of the points on six stages because he won six stages in his category. But when you look at the overall scores he didn't win any stages and now his points change because they are scored against shooters from other categories. The whole problem exists because of the two sorts. Anytime you resort, people move to different spots in the sort.

It is my understanding that the WBAS committee wanted to only have category winners and no overall winners because the categories represent independent matches. There is a Modern match, a Traditional match, and etc. That makes a lot of sense to me. But SASS overruled them. Hence the dumping of the category results into an overall results to get the overall winners.

So what now?
- do nothing and recognize there can be shifting of placings when the scores are resorted to overall.
- do away with overall winners and only post the category results.
- don't sort in to category results and pick the category placings off of the overall results.
- have the program rewritten to sort results for overall man and overall lady. Recognizing that there still will be shifting but not as extreme.
JFN

PS If you are using ACES there is a way to separate the men from the ladies. After all the scores are entered you can go back into  edit shooters and delete all the men. This doesn't completely delete them it just means they don't show in the results. You can now print an overall score for Ladies only. Then go back to edit shooters and delete the Ladies and un-delete the men. Now you can print an overall score for the men only.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 09:15:08 AM by J. Frank Norfleet »
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein