Author Topic: Scoring  (Read 2239 times)

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2017, 09:51:49 AM »
Amen Brother!!

UnionJack

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2017, 03:39:25 PM »
Mr. Nor fleet I can do basic math and then some. I disagree when you want to ease the impact of a safety infraction serious enough to earn a stage DQ. 5 seconds per target + 30 seconds does not equal a match DQ.
I'm fine with disagreeing but don't insult my intelligence by saying I cannot do basic math.
Two Dot

Completely agree here ,TT .
As to  the SDQ ,if its serious enough then it should be a game changer, if it is not, then down grade it to a minor safety. Personally I really don't like the three level system . Either its minor and used as a warning/wake up or its major and that's your match done ,take the Timer of shame or a counting stick and think about what you did .

Tully Mars

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 07:09:27 AM »
Maybe we just do away with overall? If the men's and women's scores or rank are separated to get results for overall that's not really representative of the true overall placement. If we keep any scoring system were folks are ranked or scored amongst those in their category and then against everyone else's rankings will change. So we either get rid of overall, find a system that will not allow results to change when going from category to overall (TT) or live with knowing things may change. Personally I think the system works, but it rewards a SDQ which I've benefited from and personal overall standings will likely change for some.

Many of us have shot matches we haven't been happy with and sat in the chairs at the awards and clapped for a shooter who is in the top 10 with a SDQ, it hurts and doesn't seem right, but when the scores are out and we can truly see how well the person did in that particular match I would like to think most of us move past being butt hurt to feeling good for the shooter.

TT is just straight forward and works, SDQ's will hurt us badly though.

Tully 

Samuel B Carpenter

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2017, 03:11:24 AM »

 howdy my friends

 I've been thinkin of this for a while and are still befuzzeled
 if a shooter has 11 perfect stages and earn them self a SDQ,
 we are to award them inorder to let them still be in the game - remember we earn penalties -
 BUT the poor bastard that have had a match of his life and have shoot 12 perfect stages, but a bit slower is  beaten by a sdq - not right in my book.

Total Time SDQ - x misses + 30 sec
Tie - the winner is the one with the fastes stagetime starting on the last stage

Samuel B   
Known to hit the target every now n then

Tully Mars

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2017, 05:53:47 AM »
I for one agree Sammy!

It simplifies everything and it gets rid of the illusion of inappropriate placement in the final standings of a shooter.

Besides SDQ's are truly a major safety violation that should effect a shooters outcome. A good friend pointed out that earning SDQ should be a time for education, and reflect. Reflecting on your unsafe movements or gun handling and educating and training yourself not to repeat that particular violation again. So yes my opinion on getting a SDQ has changed within the time frame of this "post".
   
TT has always been the scoring method I've believe in. But if we're using the Stage Rank or any other system we should live with the standings knowing placements will change if we have overall winners as well as category winners.

Tully

« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 06:23:47 AM by Tully Mars »

Happy Jack

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2017, 10:04:44 AM »
A few things to think about:
#1.  SASS is the ONLY shooting organization on the planet with SDQ's. Every other shooting sport only has MDQ's or nothing. The thought was that a SDQ was worse than a MSV but should NOT remove the shooter from placing in the match if they did really well the rest of the match. Do I think it is a good system?? NO, but it will NOT change. It is impossible to come up with a time for a SDQ that is fair for all types of matches. In matches such as EOT Misses + 150 is an automatic MDQ for placement. At other matches where stage times are on average much longer it might work. Remember the miss +30 came about when average stage times were in the 35-45 second range. In their attempt to be "nice" to shooters SASS totally screwed up the penalty issue.
#2. For many years there has been much more of a clamor to score SASS matches within Category than any other way. Stage Points allows that. Total time actually does not.
#3. I have been personally opposed to Overall winners forever, BUT SASS recognizes them in CAS so the same for WBAS. It is interesting AGAIN that SAS is the only shooting sport on the planet that recognizes BOTH Category winners and Overall winners. Any scoring system that is correct within Category will give different results when everyone is placed in a pool to come up with Overall placements.
#4 Stage points does give more weight to stages with more "opportunities to miss" so it is more fair in that respect.
#5. When CD Tom transfered the program into the SAS Match Management system he made a number of mistakes. Some were corrected but not all. That has resulted in messed up results that had to be corrected the last 2 years at both WR and EOT.  Aces only has one known problem and it is with SDQ's but it can be manually overriden. 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 09:14:44 AM by Happy Jack »
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Grizzly Peak Jake

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 05:53:05 PM »

 howdy my friends

 I've been thinkin of this for a while and are still befuzzeled
 if a shooter has 11 perfect stages and earn them self a SDQ,
 we are to award them inorder to let them still be in the game - remember we earn penalties -
 BUT the poor bastard that have had a match of his life and have shoot 12 perfect stages, but a bit slower is  beaten by a sdq - not right in my book.

Total Time SDQ - x misses + 30 sec
Tie - the winner is the one with the fastes stagetime starting on the last stage

Samuel B   

+1

Col. Cornelius Gilliam

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2017, 12:55:16 PM »
#2. For many years there has been much more of a clamor to score SASS matches within Category than any other way. Stage Points allows that. Total time actually does not.
#3. I have been personally opposed to Overall winners forever, BUT SASS recognizes them in CAS so the same for WBAS. It is interesting AGAIN that SAS is the only shooting sport on the planet that recognizes BOTH Category winners and Overall winners. Any scoring system that is correct within Category will give different results when everyone is placed in a pool to come up with Overall placements.

Ummm, doesn't total time actually work for both these points??

I mean, that's one of the main arguments to use total time??

You can have overall and category winners with total time, and they are not different results. 

Ted88160

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2017, 02:54:19 PM »
Fellas, I'm having a very hard time convincing my fellow Wild Bunchers to come and shoot at my Colorado State match, due to the Stage Point scoring system. Mainly due to the recent anomalies that have plagued the major matches the last couple of years, using the current scoring system. Having contacted several of the shooters that shoot Wild Bunch they ask me what scoring system I'm using for the state match. By SASS contract, we're obligated to use Stage Point scoring. My shooters have decline to come and shoot my match, for this very reason, they don't like the current scoring system. They all want Total Time as the main system for scoring a match plain and simple, any match, monthly, annual, state, national or world championship.  I'm losing shooters. I have 6 signed up for my state match. I have less than 10 weeks until my match at the end of September. Any suggestions on how to get them re-interested in Wild Bunch? We're going to see a sharp decline in attendance at our major matches if we don't update some of the rules. I'm sure we can figure out how to handle a SDQ in the scoring. And let's start using the 1911 as it should be, 7 round magazine loads. I for one enjoy shooting both CAS and WB.
TriggerHappy Ted
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Griff

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2017, 02:23:13 PM »
I argued for TT in cowboy action for several years.  Back in the '80s.  Until the WB sat me down and explained their thinking on the subject.  Same with Stage Point Scoring.

It's the resort that's the problem, not the scoring method.  Overall scores are sorted based off the fastest time of ANY shooter on that stage.  Category placements are simply pulled from that overall sort.  Same as it SHOULD be down with rank points.  A shooter's percentage should only be based off where s/he finished against that fastest time.

As long as the sort is against the fastest time for any shooter per stage, under stage point scoring someone from another category doesn't affect any shooter's percentage, unlike the PERCEPTION in rank point scoring.  AND, unless you resort scores based on individual categories, thereby giving the illusion that someone finished higher or lower in the overall than others in that category.

Categories are an artifice, and SHOULD be viewed simply to easily determine how one did against others in the same age group, or other qualifier.  The CLOCK is a constant, it starts at zero and goes until the last shot.  Where an individual falls in that range should also be a constant... not all of a sudden introducing a different clock.  There should only be ONE clock... not a different clock for Juniors, Seniors & Silver Seniors... ad nauseum.
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Garrison Joe

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2017, 03:12:45 PM »
Yep, simplest scoring with stage points would be, as Griff suggested, "don't stage-point-score each category separately."

Just run the stage points calculation, ignoring whatever category the shooter is in.  Everybody shoots against the fastest shooter (regardless of category) on each stage, and gets points based on that.  Add together each shooter's stage points, and you have total points, and sort that to have the overall ranking (positions).   

Then do the grouping of shooters into their category, carrying those overall positions along, and you get enough information to assign the finish positions within category, and they are guaranteed to reflect the SAME order as their overall finishes would tell you.   No "third place in some category" becoming the overall match winner.

Seems pretty simple.

But, still not as simple as just total time.  ;)

But, it would keep slightly more "suspense" than TT, as you have to wait till the last shooter finishes to see who was going to be the fastest on each stage, to let the fastest pard provide the scoring basis for all the other shooters on each stage.   
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 08:46:43 AM by Garrison Joe »
Good luck, GJ

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Joe Lafives #5481L

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2017, 06:52:58 PM »
I prefer Total time.  After all that is what everyone compares rank or stage to when they see them posted.  Additionally, it seems inconsistent to say - "well the other shooting sports don't use total time" and then talk about SDQ's which they don't use either.   If we are going to have SDQ's then total time works just fine.  Review some of the scores from a variety of matches as I have and see what happens if someone gets an SDQ and yet shoots a perfect match otherwise,  typically they will still place but not first - usually around 7th.  Which to my mind seems perfect.  Not the total loss of a match like an MDQ but not top five either.

Additionally.  I absolutely hate when my score is somehow affected by what others do in a match.  That's never a problem with total time.  Stage scoring is like grading on the curve - When teachers do that it's because they don't know if their test is "fair".
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 08:20:12 PM by Joe Lafives #5481L »
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