Author Topic: Changing How We Write Stages  (Read 731 times)

J. Frank Norfleet

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Changing How We Write Stages
« on: September 21, 2017, 07:29:04 AM »
The question has floated around for several years. Since EoT, I have had several ask what I thought about doing away with the rifle in WBAS? My answer has not changed, I am against it. But the question did get me to thinking.

I believe the rifle in WB has gotten short shrift and we need to rethink how we write stages that include the rifle. In the typical Cowboy target array the close targets are pistol, the far targets are rifle and knockdowns are shotgun. Since WB is generally shot on Cowboy setups, typical WB stages are: close targets - pistol, far targets - pistol/rifle and knockdowns - shotgun.

What if we actually started writing stages that set the rifle targets at rifle distance and quit trying to shoot them with the pistol? Maybe an array of rifle targets at 50 yards? or, Six inch targets at 20 yards? If you need to shoot them with the pistol, do the rifle instructions and move down range to shoot them with the pistol.

There are many possibilities. My main point is, what if we started shooting the rifle at distances it is capable of? For too long we have shot the steel that the Cowboy shooters set up for their matches. With the switch to seven rounds maybe we need to look at each of the three (pistol, rifle and shotgun) and ask how can we write stages that play to the strengths of each.

While I am on my soapbox. When does utilizing the shotgun translate into shotgun instructions, "there are six targets, knock them down." Yeah I am bored with how we shoot the shotgun too.

I know it is a challenge to write stages for WR and EoT with the steel already set or designated on each bay for the Cowboy match that follows. So add far or small targets to each stage for the rifle and move down range where possible. I think that instead of doing away with the rifle we need to start setting targets specifically for the rifle.

So my challenge to everyone is that as we work out scenarios for seven round mags, we need to make the shotgun and especially the rifle more of a challenge and more interesting. If you have a stage at your local match that is really good, share it with us and if possible post a video of someone shooting it.
JFN
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 07:58:26 AM by J. Frank Norfleet »
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 12:15:15 PM »
J Frank, great minds,what can I say! I have been trying to push the rifle targets back with anyone who will listen. I've noticed a definite creeping in of target distances at some matches. Some of this can be contributed to trying to set up stages short handed etc. looks like to me going to seven rounds perhaps cutting the rifle count to 5-7 rounds and busting the distance back 35-50 yards with good sized targets would put a reason for the rifle to exist. Now as things stand the rifle is just an auxillery pistol with a stock to up the round count. How many times have you got to the rifle targets and thought heck I could do this with my pistol! Now I'm not advocating turning the rifle into a precision shoot but anyone should be able to hit a 2/3 IDPA target at 40-50 yards at speed. As for shotgun,we'll come to the Texas state match you will be entertained. As far as the 7 round pistol mags I'm not interested in these sweeps that turn into 5-6-7 round dumps. At last months match we had a stage that was 40 pistol and 10 shotgun, no double taps and no dumps. How's that for stage writing! J Frank keep up the good work. Dusty Boddams

Lone Dog

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 08:32:36 PM »
Amen. The concept of the rifle is the projection of power over a distance. NOT to see who can toggle it the fastest. The modern paradigm that has taken over CAS and driven so many out of it was a big mistake and turn for the worse. When I started in 96 we had main match rifle targets up to 75 yards away and none inside of 20 yards. We had silly stuff on and off the clock too and we sure had a hell of a lot more fun back then. I believe 5 or 6 or 7 rifle rounds on big targets out at 40 and 50 yards would be a big winner for WBAS. The new paradigm crowd just cannot comprehend how many folks stay home now instead of coming out for that run n gun toggle fast stuff but look at the membership numbers -- there has to be a bunch of 'em I do believe.
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J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 06:45:32 AM »
At last months match we had a stage that was 40 pistol and 10 shotgun, no double taps and no dumps. How's that for stage writing! J Frank keep up the good work. Dusty Boddams

Share it! One of my top 3 all time favorite stages was one I shot at your state match several years ago. Post a PDF of the stage instructions or better yet give us a link to a video of someone shooting it. We are using Facebook to share videos. Los Pistoleros is shooting their first seven round match this Saturday and hopefully we will have some video links to watch.
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

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DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 05:57:33 PM »
JFrank, what we did was combine two stages to make a super stage we began outside of Brazos point on the left shooting 2 flippers and 4 birds into BP for some pistol work at a few stations while retaining your shotgun to the far end of BP for a pair of dueling trees and 4 more shotgun targets . Leaving the shotgun and retaining the pistol you continued over to the school house for the balance of the pistol targets including the snuff can plate rack ,the bells and one big target at about 40-45 yards. This super stage had close to 100' of movement and 50 shots total including shotgun and took fast shooters around 100 seconds raw time. There is a video that shows Wicked Felina shooting this stage and it's on Evil Roy's Facebook page. I think everyone really enjoyed it. I don't know how to capture the video to put on here. Do you? We are going to start getting more pictures and videos of our matches I think posting fun stages will bring shooters! If not at least we're all entertained!  Dusty Boddams

Reafan1

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2017, 12:05:41 AM »
Rifles are overrated anyway ;)

Tully Mars

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2017, 06:41:47 AM »
I've been on the side of the rifle should never have been involved in WB. The reason being it's never been used to it's capability's, putting targets out at distance's of 35-50 yards such as plate racks, dueling trees and smaller plates would be a fine idea.

At Chabot in the Oakland Hills we would shoot 3" angle iron at 40-45 yard or 2x2's hung on strings at the same distance. 6" knock downs at 35 yards it was challenging, fun, doable and everyone shot the same targets. This was not a SASS cowboy shoot, stoked 97's and big bores were the way to go! By the way pistol targets were at 5-35 yards as well, sometimes those 6" knock downs were the pistol targets at the same distance, you had to be shooting good loads.

The 2x2's of course wouldn't be practical or the angle iron as it sent lead long distance in the wrong direction.

I'm all for it, others will not like it!

Tully


J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2017, 10:05:12 PM »
We had a great time Saturday and I guarantee you it no longer feels like Cowboy with the 1911. I got 3 of the six stages videoed. So go to the facebook link below to find the stage instructions with the video of the stage being shot. For this match we also moved the rifle targets out and shot the shotgun in a pattern. We had to laugh at ourselves because we were having to use the rifle sights rather than looking down the rifle barrel. Was a lot of fun.

https://www.facebook.com/LosPistolerosWBAS/

You should be able to watch the videos without having a Facebook account, if not, let me know and I will post them on YouTube. One sweep I didn't get videoed was a progressive on four targets: 2 on the first target, 3 on the second, 4 on the third and 5 on the fourth for a total of 14 rounds. Worked real well. 2-3-2 for the first mag and 2-5 for the second mag.
This was our first stab at it.
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 08:25:22 AM »
JFN, sounds like success! Did you have any issues? Mag drop to early,movement slide forward etc.?  Anything imparticular to watch out for? We shot Saturday and we are shooting 5 round mags until our quickly arriving state match is over. However the rifle targets were kicked out to as far as 30-35 yards and 25 yards at another stage. Just this one simple act changed the entire feel of the match and seems to give the rifle a purpose to exist. On thinking about it if the rifle targets are now out and away from the pistol targets those rifle targets could be spread out across the stage, staggered or what ever. 7 round mags and rifle targets shot at rifle distances! Very interesting, wearing big boy britches. We are not Cowboy with a 1911! Dusty Boddams

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 08:50:00 AM »
Dusty,
We had a small group because we were competing with three other matches. But we had no early mag drops. The pistol instructions all had seven round patterns in mind so once everyone had how they were going to shoot the stage in mind there was no hesitation or mag drops after 5 rounds. We all shot the pattern. We did one stage with two different pistol sweeps, that was confusing. Other than that all went smooth.

I think you are correct in spreading the rifle targets out, makes the target to target transition a bit more challenging.

If you watch the videos you will see that Garrison Joe turned in some fast stages even with all the targets being set further down range. It felt like a shooting match and not a race.
JFN
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

DUSTY BODDAMS

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 10:09:21 AM »
JFN, I liked your videos! I guess wild bunch shooters can count to seven ;D. Did any one complain about kicking the rifle targets back? We had 13 shooters Saturday and doing a quick poll 100% liked the rifle targets being pushed out. Dusty

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2017, 12:28:01 PM »
Not a complaint.
"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

Allie Mo

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2017, 02:02:53 PM »
I love shooting my rifle. I know I will hit something.  ;)
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VICIOUS

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2017, 11:11:03 AM »
HI Gang; Handguns are a good tool to fight your way to your horse to get your rifle.

lostvaquero

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Re: Changing How We Write Stages
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2017, 06:41:57 PM »
I would prefer to keep the rifle.