Author Topic: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes  (Read 588 times)

Jackaroo

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New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« on: November 24, 2017, 04:28:13 PM »
 Having downloaded the new WB Shooting handbook and reading through them, then looking at the CHANGES, gemtlemen I think we have a problem, well at least I have.

Page 7 of the latest handbook PISTOL RANGE OPERATIONS reads, under dot point #5
"No cocked, loaded pistol may ever leave a shooters hand" (SDQ)

The Rule Change Sheet under dot point 5 reads,
"The pistol may be restaged with a loaded magazine in the gun as long as the slide is locked open. If the slide closes, thus loading a round it is a SDQ"

OK the penalties I understand and agree with, but the change contradicts the book ruling?

Also in my opinion this could be a highly dangerous situation and practice,...why...what if ( I hate playing the what if factor, but in this case i have to)  the shooter loads a loaded magazine say on the move to shoot another gun, slams it down on the prop letting it go, slide shoots forward,...now it's loaded the round, and the hammer is cocked?
A really light trigger he has, it goes off firing the round,...now don't forget there is NO restraint on the gun,...what do you think would happen?
If you don't know, this is what happens,....it will spin around maybe a whole 360 degrees depending on the prop surface, from the inertia of the recoil, thus putting everyone standing behind the firing line in danger and all will have been swept with a loaded gun.???
If it has some sort of malfunction like the firing pin jamming, then numerous other rounds could be released and possibly cause well you know what.
I'd say to the WB Ambassadores, this needs to rethought, and I will say now, should this rule be enacted by any match director then my guns are packed away and I'm off.

As per a thread earlier about "It ain't Wild Bunch"?   
Any more rules changes towards other pistol disciplines then "IT AIN'T WILD BUNCH NO LONGER"

August West

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2017, 06:41:24 AM »
I ain't no rule wonk, but to my sensibilities a "cocked, loaded pistol" implies one that is at battery.

Jackaroo

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2017, 11:41:30 AM »
Thanks for the update Sassy, lets hope this addressed soon.

Jackaroo

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2017, 11:45:19 AM »
I ain't no rule wonk, but to my sensibilities a "cocked, loaded pistol" implies one that is at battery.

Not necessarily .....if the hammer is back, it's cocked,,,,,, if there is a "loaded" magazine in the pistol even with the slide back......
it's "loaded" emphasis is on the word "loaded" in my book?

If your single action revolver is has 5 rounds in it and the hammer is down on an empty chamber, are you saying it ain't loaded?? :-[

Happy Jack

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2017, 12:53:36 PM »
Jackaroo, There was a LOT of though put into the rule changes. The committee members have over 150 years combined experience with the 1911. We are not concerned about a loaded magazine put into a 1911. Since the CA "drop test" went into effect many years ago the slide going forward on a loaded magazine isn't going to cause an unintended discharge. Yes, I know there are some older pistols in use from before the test was established. In over 50 years as an active dealer, collector, builder and shooter of 1911's I have never heard of a time a slide went forward on a gun out of the shooter's hand and it fired.  Anything is possible, but we don't write rules to cover "anything".
1911's RULE !!!

Grouchy Spike

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2017, 03:46:58 PM »
I'm liking that rule change where the penalty is a MSV instead of SDQ  for moving with pistol in hand and the slide forward on an empty chamber.  I been bit thrice by that malfunction, twice in one match which was then a MDQ.

About having a loaded magazine in the pistol, slide locked back, and pistol leaving the shooters hand?  I may become accustomed to that but I'm uneasy at the moment.
Run - Hide - Call?  Forget it !  Draw - Aim - Shoot

Last Chance

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 01:01:36 PM »
Not any different really than having a rifle that is over loaded with 11 rounds and placing it back on the shooter table with the action open and a round in the carrier. Its actually safer if the 1911 slide closes rather than the rifle's action because the 1911 has a grip safety. I don't see anything wrong there.  8)

Jackaroo

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 10:33:03 PM »
Not any different really than having a rifle that is over loaded with 11 rounds and placing it back on the shooter table with the action open and a round in the carrier. Its actually safer if the 1911 slide closes rather than the rifle's action because the 1911 has a grip safety. I don't see anything wrong there.  8)
If you did that you get a penalty mSv.

Jackaroo

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 10:38:20 PM »
Understand where you're coming from Happy Jack, but....you're breaking the basic WB rule of point 5 in my original post.
I can tell you there are many shooters unhappy about this rule including WB Ambassadores.
It's not necessary and I really don't care about all the other pistol sports who may have a similar rule.
WB doesn't need it, sorry.

Last Chance

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2017, 11:51:33 AM »
Not any different really than having a rifle that is over loaded with 11 rounds and placing it back on the shooter table with the action open and a round in the carrier. Its actually safer if the 1911 slide closes rather than the rifle's action because the 1911 has a grip safety. I don't see anything wrong there.  8)
If you did that you get a penalty mSv.
[/q]

do what ?

Jackaroo

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2017, 05:36:31 PM »
Put the rifle down with one on the carrier.

Boggus Deal

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2017, 06:21:04 PM »
Jackaroo, if someone puts a pistol down with the slide locked back and the slide falls and a round discharges, that pistol is in serious need of repair! While a 1911 can be made to go full auto, it ain't easy and a stuck firing pin will not cause it to. A stuck firing pin will not allow the cartridge to ride up the face of the slide and chamber. If you have a stuck firing pin, the only way to load a round would be to single load a round in the chamber and drop the slide. It might fire then but will not chamber the next round.
If the pistol fired when placed on a prop, and the slide closing, it would fire when the slide is dropped with the gun in hand. That is for the safety notch on the hammer.

Kid Rich

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 04:20:53 AM »
Jackaroo, if someone puts a pistol down with the slide locked back and the slide falls and a round discharges, that pistol is in serious need of repair! While a 1911 can be made to go full auto, it ain't easy and a stuck firing pin will not cause it to. A stuck firing pin will not allow the cartridge to ride up the face of the slide and chamber. If you have a stuck firing pin, the only way to load a round would be to single load a round in the chamber and drop the slide. It might fire then but will not chamber the next round.
If the pistol fired when placed on a prop, and the slide closing, it would fire when the slide is dropped with the gun in hand. That is for the safety notch on the hammer.
Stuck firing pin.
You are right BD I have had it happen, the gun becomes a canoe anchor cause that's all its good for, the round absolutely will not feed.
kR
EDIT: Fixed
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 05:39:25 AM by Kid Rich »

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 05:12:29 AM »
Stuck firing pin.
You are right JFN I have had it happen, the gun becomes a canoe anchor cause that's all its good for, the round absolutely will not feed.
kR

Sorry kR that is BD not JFN. I have purposely avoided this discussion.
JFN

P.S. BD is correct.
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Jackaroo

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Re: New Wild Bunch Rule Changes
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 04:24:58 PM »
Understand where you coming from BD, but there might be one being used in need of repair?
I'm really not interested if it can fire or not.....you maybe right but it did happen to Kathouse Kelli in Texas last year where she racked the slide and 3 shots went of automatically before stopping. We can only deduce that the securing plate for the firing pin was not quite lined up centrally, thus holding the pin forward, it chambered 3 rounds. I have checked the gun had it checked by others and it's perfect, so it may depend on different guns.

BUT......I'll refer to paragraph two of my original post. Check it again.???

Just why oh why do we want to break our own set of basic rules for this game.??
Why then do we have that rule in the first place?
This ruling is really not necessary and I only see it being pushed by shooters who are VERY familiar with other shooting disciplines where they maybe be allowed to do that!.. That's fine, let them be, but why are we continually changing rules, to me what seems to suit a few of those particular shooters......what to gain a tenth of a second????
If it's because you think it may attract more shooters, I think you are all sincerely wrong,...and it could have just the opposite affect. :)
Wild Bunch to me and to many other cowboys, is a game to have fun with a 1911, & that it is a tack on from the cowboy era; with a lot of folks totally new who are unfamiliar with is game, ....I see it all the time, some of them have never handled a 1911 before.
SASS advocates that all new WB shooters do an orientation course as outlined in the manual, to make them familiar with the rules and the 1911 when they first start,...(it's not an RO course) but I haven't met or spoken to anyone here who has undergone one.!
We do do them in Australia cause I have done several, and they work very well.
But at the end of the day....BD,....do we really need to go down this path and break our own set of basic rules....might as well change the RO course and delete the rule in my paragraph two!!!
Merry Christmas. :D