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G W Wade

Reduced capacity 45/70 cases

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Got me stumped. Found 2 boxes of reduce capacity 45/70 brass made by Gain Twist Barrel Com, Wyoming.   Advertised that if you loaded 46gr 4895 with these cases you would load 23 of 4895 instead.   Machined cases that have a wall thickness of approx. 3/16 in..  with the bullet resting on the step 1/2in in from the neck.  Only thing I have seen close was somebody in England that had 41 colt brass made by this company.  Any thoughts?      GW

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I have heard of reduced capacity cases , but never have actually seen any. Would be nice to have to reduce recoil without running into ignition problems of small loads in big cases.

I would liked to have found those myself. At my age recoil is not my friend. Especially with a curved  traditional butt-plate.:P

Rex :D

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I used to work with a BPCR shooter than had some made for either a 45-110 or 45-120 to reduce the case volume to that of a 45-70.  had it done to save his shoulder without having to purchase a new rifle.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lazy Eeyour said:

You might want to review here to see what you can gleam.

 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?64912-45-70-reduced-capacity-brass&s=bf480a7196580bca85089755cd21b489

Note someone mentioned to use half the smokeless load data for a trapdoor.

Thanks, That's the most info I have seen.     GW

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I have heard of them-Never seen one.

Can you post some pictures?

OLG

Sorry Ain't smart enough to post.  Can get a picture on my phone sometimes.    GW

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Reduced loads 45/70 ?

I thought if you wanted a reduced load you just used a wad in place of some powder ?

I personally never heard of a reduced load cartridge .

Just sayin .

Rooster   

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50 minutes ago, G W Wade said:

Sorry Ain't smart enough to post.  Can get a picture on my phone sometimes.    GW

No worries-I ain't either. :lol:

OLG

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Here in the East, berm distance is fairly close.  So, for Plainsman matches, we were just shooting at smaller targets at normal SASS rifle distances.  45-70 Single shot rifle loads had to be downloaded to .45 Colt velocities.  Not a problem.  I just used a 45 Colt load of BP, filler and my favorite .45-70 bullet.  No dented targets.

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42 minutes ago, McCandless said:

Here in the East, berm distance is fairly close.  So, for Plainsman matches, we were just shooting at smaller targets at normal SASS rifle distances.  45-70 Single shot rifle loads had to be downloaded to .45 Colt velocities.  Not a problem.  I just used a 45 Colt load of BP, filler and my favorite .45-70 bullet.  No dented targets.

 

I do a similar load for Cody Dixon matches. 25 grains of 4198 and then fill the case with enough fine walnut media that I get about 1/8 in of compression when the bullet is seated..  A lot easier and more fool proof than using a dacron filler.  Top with a 350 grain bullet and I have a nice mild load with a MV in the  1200 fps range. 

 

I use two RCBS uniflow powder measures. One for powder and one for the walunt media. The one with the walnun media has the case bushing removed. A 45-70 just fits inside the bottom of the powder measure.

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I use Trail Boss for light loads in 45/70.

13gr behind a 405gr proj gives you around 1000fps and very little recoil.

No need for any fillers/wads/etc.

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Howdy

 

I was looking at a nice original 45-70 Trapdoor Carbine the other day. The Army reduced the original 70 grain Black Powder loads for the carbines to 55 grains because the recoil with the carbines was brutal with the 70 grain loads. The extra space in the cartridge was taken up with cardboard wads. This reduced capacity brass sounds like it could be a good alternative for Trapdoor Carbines without needing to add cardboard wads as a filler.

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14 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

No worries-I ain't either. :lol:

OLG

Dang then that makes 3 of us !!!:D

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1 hour ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

They also made "gallery loads"  Is this the same idea?

 

Yes

 

Some of the early Gallery Loads had lead shot or a couple of lead balls over a reduced power charge. A faux bullet made of wood was placed over the everything to keep it in the case. They also made these in several pistol calibers as well.

 

Another Gallery load had a deep chanelure formed into the case. The location of the chanelure depended on the number of lead balls loaded into the case. These were also loaded with a reduced powder charge.

 

A third reduced load used a vary light weight collar button style of bullet.

 

 

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image.png.3de4a2cbe5fcfbed4de186aea5649f8f.png

 

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"I personally saw an Uberti 38-55 Highwall barrel rung by using this method. I was spotting for another gentleman who was new to shooting at our local buffalo shoots and noticed he was having to pry the cases out with a screw driver to assist the extractor. He was complaining about how rough the chamber was that Uberti sent him. I looked at his cases and saw 3 distinct rings. During the discussion I ask if the problem occurred when the rifle was new or over the last couple weeks and how many different loads/bullet combinations he was using and the seating depths. All of a sudden the light came on and he realized what he had done.

Now I do not know the density of the filler, nor what he was actually using, and if he used an overpowder wad with the filler in front of that (etc etc etc) but the outcome was a certainty."

                          yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

This is from a BPCR forum post.


 

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17 minutes ago, Red Cent said:

"I personally saw an Uberti 38-55 Highwall barrel rung by using this method. I was spotting for another gentleman who was new to shooting at our local buffalo shoots and noticed he was having to pry the cases out with a screw driver to assist the extractor. He was complaining about how rough the chamber was that Uberti sent him. I looked at his cases and saw 3 distinct rings. During the discussion I ask if the problem occurred when the rifle was new or over the last couple weeks and how many different loads/bullet combinations he was using and the seating depths. All of a sudden the light came on and he realized what he had done.

Now I do not know the density of the filler, nor what he was actually using, and if he used an overpowder wad with the filler in front of that (etc etc etc) but the outcome was a certainty."

                          yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

This is from a BPCR forum post.


 

 

Would you post the link so that we can read the entire thread.?

 

Using a card over the powder and leaving a huge air gap between the card and bullet is a sure way to ring a chamber.

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GW, I am familiar with this company and also one of the people who made these cases. The company made brass for obsolete cartridges and also made the reduced capacity cases for many cartridges, plus barrels and other items. The idea behind the cases are to alleviate the use of fillers and also reduce the chance of detonations which were believed to have caused "rung" barrels and also responsible for destroying some guns. Some folks believe the detonation is caused by a low volume charge with exposure from the primer flash across the powder over the length of the cartridge. As opposed to just exposure to the base of the powder as would be normal in a higher volume charge. The equipment has been sold a couple of times since Gain Twist was in business and I believe the gentleman who owns the equipment is still making the reduced capacity cases and resides in Thermopolis Wyoming. 

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Along the same line but not Cowboy, the military is currently experimenting with polymer cases for their subsonic rifle loads. The walls can be made thick so the case fill is proper and avoids wide variations in muzzle velocity. I have shot some and they work excellent.

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Happy Jack the military is testing polymer cases due to weight and heat considerations.

 The cases composition,  reduce weight to nothing and they come out from the ejection port cool to the touch!!

  They are currently only being sold to the military and not for commercial sales. Curious how you got a hold of some??

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Reduced capacity .45-70 cases...maybe .45-70 Special cases to be offered sometime in the future? Many CAS shooters had cut down .45LC cases to create .45CS, a fellow shooter I shot with cut down some .41 Mag to create .41 Special...Starline now offers .45CS and .41 Special. I'll look into cutting down some .45-70 cases for Plainsman matches.

 

From another forum, the comment was that .45-70 cases had a slight thicker rim than .45-60 cases.

 

RRR

Edited by Rowdy Ranger Rick
didn't finish, hit wrong key

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21 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy

 

I was looking at a nice original 45-70 Trapdoor Carbine the other day. The Army reduced the original 70 grain Black Powder loads for the carbines to 55 grains because the recoil with the carbines was brutal with the 70 grain loads. The extra space in the cartridge was taken up with cardboard wads. This reduced capacity brass sounds like it could be a good alternative for Trapdoor Carbines without needing to add cardboard wads as a filler.

I’ve got a original Trapdoor Carbine built in 1874. I use it in Plainsman matches. I only shoot BP subs in it. Mostly APP. I tried to shoot a lighter bullet, but found it only likes 405 grn with full case of powder. With a reduced load I could not hit a Buffalo if one swallowed me whole. Full loads its pretty accurate. 

 

Ive had people tell me it’s ok to shoot trail boss in it, but I won’t risk it. 

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8 hours ago, ywaltzucanrknrl said:

GW, I am familiar with this company and also one of the people who made these cases. The company made brass for obsolete cartridges and also made the reduced capacity cases for many cartridges, plus barrels and other items. The idea behind the cases are to alleviate the use of fillers and also reduce the chance of detonations which were believed to have caused "rung" barrels and also responsible for destroying some guns. Some folks believe the detonation is caused by a low volume charge with exposure from the primer flash across the powder over the length of the cartridge. As opposed to just exposure to the base of the powder as would be normal in a higher volume charge. The equipment has been sold a couple of times since Gain Twist was in business and I believe the gentleman who owns the equipment is still making the reduced capacity cases and resides in Thermopolis Wyoming. 

Don Barker  Meeteetse,Wyoming. He and a couple others started the Ballard Rifle Co., they made gain twist barrels, and made machined obsolete cartridge cases. 

Don also made some 22 lr Volcanic pistols. 

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Dutch, as you mentioned there are a number of reasons for polymer cased cartridges. The ones in various calibers and designs I have fired were when development guys were here for training. They took the cases with them when they left. I am not at liberty to discuss details. 

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15 hours ago, Hoss said:

Ive had people tell me it’s ok to shoot trail boss in it, but I won’t risk it. 

 

Lots of people think Trail Boss is a Black Powder substitute. It is not. It is a Smokeless powder with a completely different power curve than Black Powder.

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http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1030

 

 

I shoot with some fellers that use wads with smokeless powder. Fixed cartridges. You can have the card as little as .10" off the powder. Just don't allow the wad to rest on the powder. The explanation is that the wad becomes the projectile and the bullet is the obstruction. I don't want to have to buy another barrel. And my cartridge case, the 38-55 is tapered and gets bigger at the bottom :o

They use the wad to tune their load by finding the sweet spot. Some use floral foam and some use the foam from the rolled water pipe covers. Other simply use a paper or veggie wad. 

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Rocky Mountain Cartridge LLC.  I believe they use to run out of the Ballard shop in Cody. Now they are in Worland, Wyoming. 

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Had read of thick walled "stepped seating" cases years ago...made for the 450-577...  Not really surprising its been done for other calibres too!

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Hey GW...the 45-70 is a reduced load. It sure ain't no 45-90 or 45-110...

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I know it is OMG  But I am happy your checking up on  me.   GW

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