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Reverend Ledslinga

WHAT'S THE CALL??

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The OP said the first shot NEVER LEFT THE BARREL, so therefore that's a miss!! I don't see what's so complicated about this!!:blink:

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It doesn't matter that you reckon the first bullet rode atop the second bullet and both hit the target.  There's no guarantee they will do that every time.  So it comes down to whether it was really a squib.  The rule is if you THINK it's a miss, then it's a hit.  How would you score any non - squib shot that didn't ring steel but you also didn't see kick up dirt?  So if you THINK it was a miss because you THINK it was a squib, then it's a hit.  At least, that's how I'd call it around here.  I realize some places don't have the benefit of expressive dirt. 

 

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Just one comment about bad hearing: 

 

To some of us, especially during a course of fire, the words 'GOT IT'  ain't much different than 'STOP'.

And because of the 'squib' type situation, the shooter could have easily heard "GOT" instead of "STOP".

 

BECAUSE, the word "IT"  can be drowned out by the next shot...... which leads to the shooter having

multiple choices:

1.   Shooter heard nothing

2.  Shooter thought he heard the word 'GOT (with a subdued 'it' at the time of firing the next round.

3.  Shooter thought he heard the word "STOP" and ignored it.

 

Based on the comments as how this situation was handled, it looks like all considerations DUE to the

shooter were properly handled and the correct call was applied.

 

I say:   WELL DONE TO and Spotters!    My hat is off to you.

 

..........Widder

 

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This post aint over til the bearded Wolf sings:rolleyes:

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The only real question here is did the shooter hear the command to stop. If he did MDQ, if not no call. Unless the spotters saw it miss then it's a hit.

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I was at the shoot in question and observed what took place.  Ledfinger did an excellent job as TO and I doubt anyone could have responded faster to the squib. The shooter in question is extremely fast and it is my belief the shot after was taking place while the call was made.  I do not believe the shooter ignored the command.   As Reverend said it happened that fast.  The benefit of doubt in my opinion would go to the shooter.   The question now becomes whether it is a hit or a miss.  There was no evidence of a hit and there was no evidence of a miss.  Do you have to see the miss in order to call it.  This goes back to a much earlier thread on seeing misses vs no evidence of a hit.  In the earlier discussion it was brought to my attention that at many shoots you cannot see a miss due to grass or other vegetation.  It was divided among those responding.  Do you call a hit to all squibs where no one saw what happened to the bullet in question? 

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5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

What target did he miss?

Really Phantom?  I need to explain this to you?

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Known facts.

 

1.  squib

2. Squib bullet stayed in the barrel

3. Shooter ignored the TO's "Stop" command.

 

MDQ  unless Shooter is known to be hard of hearing.  

Edited by Matthew Duncan
Typos

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What a mess.

Some say "clean", some "1 miss", some "MDQ".

  • Shooter fires - it's a squib, bullet does not go down range = miss.
  • TO's "Stop" isn't fast enough and shooter fires another round, apparently hitting the target.  That is a hit, but I'm still calling a miss on the previous shot.  I'm watching/listening to the target for a single hit (per shot).  I am not going to ASSUME that both bullets traveled together and hit the target at the exact same time.
  • The MDQ is still in play because although it has been stated that the shooter was quicker than the TO, the TO did give the STOP command and the shooter fired FOUR more rounds (one that cleared the squib and the three following rounds). 

That's my thoughts, 

BS 

Edited by Barry Sloe
Revised the TWO to FOUR rounds fired as pointed out by Yusta B.
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31 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

 

  • The MDQ is still in play because although it has been stated that the shooter was quicker than the TO, the TO did give the STOP command and the shooter fired TWO more rounds (one that cleared the squib and the second that hit the last target). 

 

He actually fired 4 more rounds - squib was 1st shot, second pistol.

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7 hours ago, Leadfinger said:

So this is what transpired on this stage.  The shooter shot the first pistol at a single knockdown target for one round, then dumped the remaining four rounds on a stationary target.  The second pistol was drawn and the first round was at a stationary target.  I was the TO and when this round went off it sounded like a squib.  As the TO I immediately said stop.  The shooter is a little hard of hearing and I know without a doubt the command was given loud enough since all the spotters and posse around heard my command. 

 

My job as a TO is to watch the gun handling not the targets.  As the TO operator even though I gave the command and the shooter continued with the string I couldn't tell whether the bullet hit the target.  It is possible the bullet hit the target or it's possible the second round pushed the squib out as the shooter continued the string on the final target meaning he shot it out of order putting the incorrect amount of rounds on the final target. 

 

Whether the shooter did or didn't hear the command he took it upon himself to continue the string.

 

In my opinion if we don't know which target the bullet actually hit because we either didn't see the hit or don't know which target the bullet actually hit the advantage should go to the shooter and in this case it did.    

 

Lead Finger

I would like to point out we have focused on the shot and the targets in some of our responses. A command to STOP can mean any number of things and if a shooter cannot respond to a STOP command, then some other means of communication needs to be agreed to in advance. I know two or three shooters who have to be touched for the start of a stage. What if the command to STOP were for something other then the squib? The TO needs to know the STOP command is going to be communicated in such a way there is no debate afterwards about whether the shooter heard a command, saw a visual of the command, or felt a motion to convey the command. All TO commands would need to be conveyed without causing the situation to become worse by startling the shooter or having them commit a follow on safety or rules violation. Perhaps a loud whistle may become acceptable for those hard of hearing. A touch may be too startling. 

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Clean. Next shooter, please!

1). NOBODY can say whether it was a squib load or just a lighter than normal round since they couldn't look at the revolver before the following shot. Wikipedia has the definition of a squib load to show you a squib is not just a light load but a load in which there is insufficient power to exit the barrel.

2). NOBODY seen a miss.

3). NOBODY but the shooter knows if he heard the T.O. or not.

 

Yeah, some stuff could've been done different but hindsight is 20/20. TO couldve had an agreed upon signal for the known hard of hearing shooter, but who thinks about that beforehand. T.O. could've repeated himself until the shooter heard him, but what wouldve been the use after the next shot.

 

I'd be interested in what the untanned Canis Lupus says on this as well.

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I'm the TO from HELL in cases like this.  Suspected squib.?  "Stop! CEASE FIRE!"  Shooter doesn't react...  and a hand gets laid on the shooter to reinforce verbal direction.  Yes, hopefully that all takes place BEFORE another round is fired.  If not... oh well, I tried my best, but I interfered with the shooter, and will gladly offer a reshoot if the barrel is clear.  Because, frankly, there wouldn't have been a third shot fired!  And if the shooter is upset about it... my attitude is "get over it"... I reacted to what I thought was an unsafe situation.  I know there have been shooters that were initially upset over my reaction to what I thought was a squib... I do hope they've gotten over it... In my defense, I believe I've only been wrong on ONE occasion.    And I can live happily ever after no matter how many times I'm wrong... if I'm right once and save someone from injury.  The alternative is too horrid to contemplate.

 

Frankly, I want all my TOs to feel the same way.  

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15 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Really Phantom?  I need to explain this to you?

Yes, please.

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes, please.

I'll try to make this as simple as possible for you.  One spotter knew it was a squib, the TO knew it was a squib and ordered a cease fire.  No one saw or heard the squib leave the barrel.  The empirical evidence is sufficient that there was a squib and that the next round fired pushed it out of the barrel.  There is no evidence the squib hit the target.  The squib did not leave the barrel under its own power therefore is a miss. 

 

On any other kind of single tap sweep, he would have gotten a "P" using the logic the hit counted after being pushed to the target with the next round.  The TO knew the shooter was a bit hard of hearing so a MDQ is not in play.

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22 hours ago, Leadfinger said:

I was the TO and when this round went off it sounded like a squib.

 

It is possible the bullet hit the target or it's possible the second round pushed the squib out as the shooter continued the string...........

 

In my opinion if we don't know which target the bullet actually hit because we either didn't see the hit or don't know which target the bullet actually hit the advantage should go to the shooter and in this case it did.    

 

Lead Finger

 

I have edited the post from the TO to highlight those comments concerning the squib.

 

In his own words, see the 2nd paragraph above....... which to me implies the possibility that this 'perceived squib'

may have actually been a fired round.

And because NO ONE could be certain of a miss..... then it ain't one.

 

Was ANY of the participants 100% sure there was actually a squib?

 

Shooter is Clean.   I see no other call based on the info WE (the Wire Pards) have been given.

 

..........Widder

 

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On 12/10/2018 at 10:33 PM, Reverend Ledslinga said:

 First pistol good, 2nd pistol, first shot a squib where the bullet did not leave the barrel. Shooter was too quick or just decided to continue shooting. Fired the next three rounds all on target #3 and fifth and final single shot good on target #4. 

 

22 hours ago, Leadfinger said:

So this is what transpired on this stage.  The shooter shot the first pistol at a single knockdown target for one round, then dumped the remaining four rounds on a stationary target.  The second pistol was drawn and the first round was at a stationary target.  I was the TO and when this round went off it sounded like a squib.  As the TO I immediately said stop.  The shooter is a little hard of hearing and I know without a doubt the command was given loud enough since all the spotters and posse around heard my command. 

 

My job as a TO is to watch the gun handling not the targets.  As the TO operator even though I gave the command and the shooter continued with the string I couldn't tell whether the bullet hit the target.  It is possible the bullet hit the target or it's possible the second round pushed the squib out as the shooter continued the string on the final target meaning he shot it out of order putting the incorrect amount of rounds on the final target. 

 

Lead Finger

 

Out of curiosity,  was there another incident that would have earned the shooter a 'P'?

 

The Reverend (a spotter) stated that all the shots on the targets were engaged correctly.

Leadfinger (the TO) stated in his last sentence that..... "the shooter continued the string on the final target

meaning he shot it out of order putting the incorrect amount of rounds on the final target"

 

As the TO, you should have called the 'P' for putting the incorrect amount of rounds on the final target.

 

What really happened on this stage with this shooter?

 

..........Widder

 

 

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Howdy,

To me it appears that there are two issues here.

First, the TO said "Stop".  It is the shooters responsibility to STOP.  It is the shooters responsibility to be able to be safe.  The shooter MUST be able to react to the commands of the TO.  If the shooter cannot or will not, regardless of the reason, then it is a MDQ.  IMHO, if the shooter is not able to hear commands of the TO then the shooter should not be allowed to shoot.  This is an issue of safety, for everyone.  Based on the fact that a spotter heard "Stop" and the shooter did not stop --> MDQ.

Second, a spotter must see a miss to be a miss.

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The TO wrongly gave the order to STOP.  But, this should have been followed ( if heard )

 

I do say wrongly, because the correct order would have been something like SQUIB, Make safe, next gun,

Stop would actually be impeding the shooter and they would need a reshoot.

 

But since it was given, it should have been followed.  Maybe someone was see down range ?  the shooter does know, so should have followed order ( if heard )

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Howdy,

To me it appears that there are two issues here.

First, the TO said "Stop".  It is the shooters responsibility to STOP.  It is the shooters responsibility to be able to be safe.  The shooter MUST be able to react to the commands of the TO.  If the shooter cannot or will not, regardless of the reason, then it is a MDQ.  IMHO, if the shooter is not able to hear commands of the TO then the shooter should not be allowed to shoot.  This is an issue of safety, for everyone.  Based on the fact that a spotter heard "Stop" and the shooter did not stop --> MDQ.

Second, a spotter must see a miss to be a miss.

 

Yep, thats the answer..... ban the deaf from participating.

 

Was anyone actually  100% sure of the squib?  Heck, there is even contradiction of shots on correct targets between

a spotter and the TO (see previous post from both).

And the answer is................  Ban Deaf Shooters from the Game.

 

Problem solved!

 

..........Widder

 

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2 hours ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Howdy,

To me it appears that there are two issues here.

First, the TO said "Stop".  It is the shooters responsibility to STOP.  It is the shooters responsibility to be able to be safe.  The shooter MUST be able to react to the commands of the TO.  If the shooter cannot or will not, regardless of the reason, then it is a MDQ.  IMHO, if the shooter is not able to hear commands of the TO then the shooter should not be allowed to shoot.  This is an issue of safety, for everyone.  Based on the fact that a spotter heard "Stop" and the shooter did not stop --> MDQ.

Second, a spotter must see a miss to be a miss.

I too, along with Widder have trouble with this,,   first,,,  a spotter must see a  miss to be a  miss?  chapter and verse?

 

second,,, MDQ if the shooter doesn't hear a command?  phtt!!  some are hearing impaired, and others are so into the stage they often don't hear a command...again,, phtt

 

now, if someone ignores a command by acknowledging but going ahead, then mdq 

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2 hours ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Howdy,

To me it appears that there are two issues here.

First, the TO said "Stop".  It is the shooters responsibility to STOP.  It is the shooters responsibility to be able to be safe.  The shooter MUST be able to react to the commands of the TO.  If the shooter cannot or will not, regardless of the reason, then it is a MDQ.                           

 

Show me where it says that in the handbook without it saying wilfull.

 

 

IMHO, if the shooter is not able to hear commands of the TO then the shooter should not be allowed to shoot.  This is an issue of safety, for everyone.  Based on the fact that a spotter heard "Stop" and the shooter did not stop --> MDQ.

Second, a spotter must see a miss to be a miss.

I dont call people ignorant on the wire, and I wont start here. I will however drop this comment right here like a big pile of dookie cause it'll fit right in.

 

Lets don't stop with banning deaf people. Lets also ban people missing digits on their hands and feet, prosthetic limbs, bad eyesight, bad tickers, elderly folks, and people with crippled dogs. While we're at it, lets go ahead and set a minimum I.Q. and do away with people that have less than stellar judgement. Might make it hard to find a place to shoot, reckon?

 

Dander=up

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I've been following this, and I, as a pretty good competitor, have a problem with a good shooter, or any shooter,  not stopping when they have a squib.  I haven't had many, but I KNOW when I have a squib.  I stop and put the gun down.  It's not safe to the other people near the firing line, nor do I want to risk blowing up my firearm three feet in front of my face.

 

When I'm running the timer, if I suspect a squib, I'll scream "squib, put it down."  Everybody I've ever timed has a pause if the shot doesn't go off right.  That give the timer a brief window to intervene.  If the shooter is hard of hearing I'll put a hand on their shooter and repeat.  If they persist, it's a MDQ.

 

I've also had a very light powder load which sounded like a squib to me from a shooter bounce along the ground, but did exit the gun.   A very good spotter yelled, "It cleared", so I didn't stop the shooter.  He did get the miss, but did finish the run.  However, if I yelled " Squib, put it down" and the shooter persisted, I would MDQ them.  If the firearm is clear after the stage is over, it's a reshoot, probably saving a miss and everbody is safe.

 

NNV

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

I've been following this, and I, as a pretty good competitor, have a problem with a good shooter, or any shooter,  not stopping when they have a squib.  I haven't had many, but I KNOW when I have a squib.  I stop and put the gun down.  It's not safe to the other people near the firing line, nor do I want to risk blowing up my firearm three feet in front of my face.

 

When I'm running the timer, if I suspect a squib, I'll scream "squib, put it down."  Everybody I've ever timed has a pause if the shot doesn't go off right.  That give the timer a brief window to intervene.  If the shooter is hard of hearing I'll put a hand on their shooter and repeat.  If they persist, it's a MDQ.

 

I've also had a very light powder load which sounded like a squib to me from a shooter bounce along the ground, but did exit the gun.   A very good spotter yelled, "It cleared", so I didn't stop the shooter.  He did get the miss, but did finish the run.  However, if I yelled " Squib, put it down" and the shooter persisted, I would MDQ them.  If the firearm is clear after the stage is over, it's a reshoot, probably saving a miss and everbody is safe.

 

NNV

 

 

 

 

 

Howdy Null.

Your process is a good sound exercise.

I agree in that of those whom I have witness a squib, the shooter slightly hesitated.

 

But a comment by either the Spotter or the TO above indicated that this particular shooter 

showed no signs of a hesitation.   Apparently his quad tap on target 3 was very fast and

apparently his round AFTER the squib was so quick that it was over before anyone could

stop him.   

 

You can TO for me anytime.

 

..........Widder

 

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8 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I'll try to make this as simple as possible for you.  One spotter knew it was a squib, the TO knew it was a squib and ordered a cease fire.  No one saw or heard the squib leave the barrel.  The empirical evidence is sufficient that there was a squib and that the next round fired pushed it out of the barrel.  There is no evidence the squib hit the target.  The squib did not leave the barrel under its own power therefore is a miss. 

 

On any other kind of single tap sweep, he would have gotten a "P" using the logic the hit counted after being pushed to the target with the next round.  The TO knew the shooter was a bit hard of hearing so a MDQ is not in play.

Thanks for all the superfluous info...I was simply asking about your call for a miss.

 

There was a Squib on the first shot. Second shot left the barrel. Where did the first bullet go?

 

Focus like a laser beam;)

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Call me crazy but forget was it clean, MDQ etc. If a shooter is so hard of hearing that he can't hear what has been termed a loud call to stop, isn't that endangering him and everyone near the line of fire?????

Second thought it was a squib, and the gun explodes hurting him and those around him.

Screw the call fix the shooter he's the problem.

Ike

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20 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Call me crazy but forget was it clean, MDQ etc. If a shooter is so hard of hearing that he can't hear what has been termed a loud call to stop, isn't that endangering him and everyone near the line of fire?????

Second thought it was a squib, and the gun explodes hurting him and those around him.

Screw the call fix the shooter he's the problem.

Ike

 

Well, I've shot with two folks(that I know of) that are legally deaf. Both are just as safe as some that can hear.  This was at three different state matches and their shooting partner instructed the TO to lift hand off their shoulder at the beep, and put hand back on shoulder to stop them. It was simple and worked just fine; and yes one lady was stopped in this manner.

 

I've shot with a lady that could hear a mouse fart at the clubhouse but was about as unsafe with a gun as she possibly could be; swept half the posse one day and doubt she'd pay attention to a STOP command.

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

There was a Squib on the first shot. Second shot left the barrel. Where did the first bullet go?

Squib=Miss

It doesn't matter what happened to the first slug.  

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7 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Squib=Miss

It doesn't matter what happened to the first slug.  

How do you know there was a squib?

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

How do you know there was a squib?

Because the spotter and TO said there was?

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Just now, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Because the spotter and TO said there was?

Yeah, people tell me stuff a lot. Doesn't mean it's true. Was it the spotter or the TO that checked the revolver after the low powered round went off to see if it was a squib or not? If the bullet wasn't still in the barrel, it wasn't a squib. Explain to me how we would know.

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4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yeah, people tell me stuff a lot. Doesn't mean it's true. Was it the spotter or the TO that checked the revolver after the low powered round went off to see if it was a squib or not? If the bullet wasn't still in the barrel, it wasn't a squib. Explain to me how we would know.

The lack of the discharge report and absence of a slug striking steel.  

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If you think it’s a squib, it’s a miss. 

 

If you think its a miss, it’s a miss. 

 

If you think it may have hit, it’s a miss. 

 

 

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Some folks reading between the lines.

 

No squib found and maybe that sound pffft was just quite not enough powder behind the bullet. No squib found in barrel.

 

No misses found shooter cleaned the stage. Three spotters after conversing stated clean.

 

P.S.  Prove it was a squib pilgrims.. A squib is  when it is lodged in the barrel of the firearm. Then it is counted as a miss. On top of that prove it did not hit the target.

 

Merry Christmas to all.

 

As always;

Jackrabbit Joe #414

 

 

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