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Stump Water

Seeing a miss

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3 hours ago, J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE said:

I'm stunned!  Do you mean to tell me none of you can see the bullets in flight?

I can but no one believes me!!:P

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20 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I can but no one believes me!!:P

It's alright Rye i believes ya,  cuase i can see em too,  right after the tiny puff of smoke at the end of the barrel and the report of what sounds like a daisy red rider.

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If the light is right and the bullet is slow enough, it's clearly visible.  It's pretty neat.

 

NNV

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Don't you have some gun carts to build? :lol::P

OLG

Nah, I’m pot stirring today.

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Never said you can't see a miss.   Never said don't consider all evidence available (such as dirt flying 10' behind the target).  What I don't agree with is the notion that, if you don't have that "supporting evidence" (such as dirt flying 10' behind the target), then you can't call a miss.

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7 hours ago, Snakebite said:

... but in this game we are NOT CHARGED with determining hits, rather determining misses...

 

Same thing.   It's not multiple choice.  If you "determine a miss", then you've determined it's not a hit.  

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10 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

Same thing.   It's not multiple choice.  If you "determine a miss", then you've determined it's not a hit.  

Please help me out here... where does it say that? 

 

I'm not trying to start anything here... believe what ever you want. But I think that it is much easier to determine a miss than it is to determine a hit. Many targets don't ring and don't move when hit. It is compounded with the light loads that are used today. Seeing the dirt behind the target is a much better indicator. The shooter's score is adjusted by the number of misses, it is not added up by the number of hits. Misses are what spotters are looking for, NOT hits.

Edited by Snakebite

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12 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

 Also my bullets get to the target pretty fast my rifle loads exceed the speed of sound so the BOOM and the Ring are Closer than so folks are used to ....  One spotter called me for 10 misses on the rifle he was standing right behind me (in the Smoke)thankfully the other spotters were to the side and saw all ten hits.... When he was quizzed he admitted that he had heard several clangs mingled in the Booms ,,, but since they were TOO close to the Boom they could not be hits from my gun and must be from another posse...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Exceeding the speed of sound you say...sounds illegal to me. 1000 fps is the max...SHB page xyz zippity doo dah...so you're admitting to 1050 to 1150 depending on altitude, but who cares...I certainly don't. It's better that poof tink 8 days a week!

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Edge hits cause dirt to fly behind targets. If you would all be so kind as to shoot at a point on the center of the large target with a goodly bullet weight and powder charge... instead of the the entire large target with teeny bullets and budget powder charges...we wouldn't have to discuss this. Heh heh heh...

 

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3 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Exceeding the speed of sound you say...sounds illegal to me. 1000 fps is the max...SHB page xyz zippity doo dah...so you're admitting to 1050 to 1150 depending on altitude, but who cares...I certainly don't. It's better that poof tink 8 days a week!

 

FYI (considering this response was to a post regarding RIFLE rounds):

Quote

The maximum velocities are 1000 fps for revolvers and 1400 fps for rifles. 

SHB pp. 26 & 45 

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25 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

FYI (considering this response was to a post regarding RIFLE rounds):

SHB pp. 26 & 45 

Yeah...That unread book strikes again! Got confused...should've called it clean and kept on keeping on.

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It is my understanding that a TO cannot over rule a spotter.  Only point out information given by the spotters.  What do you do if a spotter says he saw an edge hit and can point it out to the other two spotters? 

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1 hour ago, Kirk James said:

It is my understanding that a TO cannot over rule a spotter.  Only point out information given by the spotters.  What do you do if a spotter says he saw an edge hit and can point it out to the other two spotters? 

I just ask the spotters to discuss... Never pressure anyone to change their minds.

 

What's sad is when the is obvious evidence of a edge... Or whatever, that some spotters will never change their minds... Like it's an insult to their manhood (or womanhood).

 

Phantom

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On 12/21/2018 at 3:27 PM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

Q. One

Occasionally, when I've heard a hit (bang then clang), didn't see a hit anywhere, and didn't call a miss; I've been overruled by the TO and other counters who said they saw it hit the stand. IMO, it is very difficult to see a hit on a rebar stand, which they were.

 

I have observed this many times. Is it a case of my hearing a miss? What are your thoughts on that situation?

 

Q. Two

The most egregious time it happened, I don't remember if I was a counter or was just an observer, listening to the conversation. I don't remember if it was the same or different TOs. One very popular shooter (I adore her, as does everyone) was said by some to have hit the stand. The TO called it a hit.  That same day, a not-so-popular shooter was said to hit the stand, she got a miss.

 

Neither had unanimous calls by the counters. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Reminder: TOs are not allowed to call or overrule hits/misses. (period!)  In fact; no one can overrule your call on misses but you can be out voted (which is not a bad thing).

 

on Q. One.  You could say you are hearing a miss but it would be more accurate to say that you heard a hit that was not on a valid target for that firearm, which constitutes a miss.

 

On Q. Two.  I too have witnessed favoritism occur on occasion and in one case was so blatant I nearly gave up this game before I really got started.  However; I have come to accept that this game is played by people and everybody has bias' of one sort or another.  Reality sucks sometimes and is rarely fair.

 

btw;  I am also very popular and I'm sure everyone adores me.  ;) :P 

I think this is why everyone seems so intent on paying extra close attention and catching every little mistake I make. :angry:

 

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On 12/22/2018 at 5:21 AM, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Edge hits cause dirt to fly behind targets. If you would all be so kind as to shoot at a point on the center of the large target with a goodly bullet weight and powder charge... instead of the the entire large target with teeny bullets and budget powder charges...we wouldn't have to discuss this. Heh heh heh...

 

 

Uh Hmm, so if everyone was to start doing this, are you saying that you will too?:huh:

 

(you set yourself up and I couldn't let it pass :P)

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When I'm spotting, my goal is verify 'hits' first and a correct sequence/round count second.

 

If I witnessed a hit on an appropriate target, it's a hit

If I witnessed a hit anywhere else, it's a miss

If I did not witness a hit anywhere AND I am certain that there was not one on an appropriate target, it's a miss.

 

I call what I am certain of.  I am aware that we can all be completely certain of something and still be wrong.

 

I try to relax my focus and take in as much of the field as I can so that I can detect stray rounds, ricochets, edge hits, etc...

 

Our matches frequently include round count stages so you have to be looking at all the targets since you can't be sure where the shooter will start or what order they will proceed.

 

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Some of the wide impacts on a berm are because the shot went below the target, hit the dirt there and ricocheted unpredictably into the berm.  If you are behind the shooter and target, you may not see the ground impact but see the wide berm impact.  Because it's wide, doesn't mean it's an edge hit.  That's why spotters should spread out.

 

I look for the target to move, a noise off of the target and the impact of the bullet on the target first and miss impact second.  If I'm off to to one side, I may not be able to see a miss impact because a prop or the targets hide it.

 

If I get one of the three, that's a hit.  I run my ear plugs a bit loose so I can hear impacts better.  They are not that loose to damage my hearing and I'm away from the gun.  So if I don't hear a clang, don't see the target move or the impact on the target, it's a miss.  If it's a light load, I'll be especially attentive.  I've been at matches where the ball hit the target dead center and three spotters called a miss.  That's not fair to the shooter.  When I run the timer, I appreciate that if the shooter has light loads that he/she tell me when they come to the line.  That's lets me inform the spotters.

 

As far as hits on the stand, I'll only call that a miss when I see the impact was on the stand.   If I hear something but don't see the stand impact, it's a hit.  I may think it hit the stand, but if my mind starts the sentence with "I think"  it's a hit.  

 

If I do see a stand hit, I'll call the miss and say it hit the stand.  That's what happened.  I'm not insulting the other spotters and if they call it a hit, that's fine with me.

 

NNV

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I have a question about the proposition that spotters should not be counting hits but rather only counting misses.

 

If that’s true, how would a spotter know that the shooter hit the targets in the proper sequence?

 

For example if the shooter is supposed to shoot a progressive sweep 1 on #1, 2 on #2, 3 on #3 and 4 on #4 how does the spotter know that the targets were hit in the proper order unless they counted 1 hit on the first target, two hits on the second target and so forth?

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Now , Bill. You know we count shots, but we also keep track of and report misses^_^

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3 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

Now , Bill. You know we count shots, but we also keep track of and report misses^_^

Of course! That’s my point, we’re tracking both, not just staring at the back of the berm looking for flying dirt. The spotter should know the shooting order, be watching for hits, and be aware of the number of hits on specific targets, not just counting misses.

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7 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

Uh Hmm, so if everyone was to start doing this, are you saying that you will too?:huh:

 

(you set yourself up and I couldn't let it pass :P)

Practice what I preach...not that I do...hahaha

 

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11 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

Uh Hmm, so if everyone was to start doing this, are you saying that you will too?:huh:

 

(you set yourself up and I couldn't let it pass :P)

I only missed once or twice in that DA match...not bad for not picking up the gun in two years...did the scores ever come out for it?

 

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Educate your spotters! They have to know what they're supposed to be looking for. You can't take a new shooter, hand em a spotter stick and expect to get good spotting. You have to know to be aware of edge hits, what it means when dirt flies off to the side, etc. And there's a reason we use three spotters.

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When there are "for sure" misses … and I notice the other two spotters have their fingers extended (so I know the correct number of misses will be accessed) … I usually call the stage "clean" (or one less than what the other spotters are going for) in order to gain the gratitude of the shooter.

 

I figure … that way … "no harm is done" … the correct penalties have been accessed and the shooter might be inclined to give me an "extra" break when they are spotting for me.

 

Why scratch for tenths or hundredths of a second in a match when there are those little 5 second freebees just laying there??

 

This is the "low hanging fruit" right??!? :o

Spotters - 

spotters.jpg.ed5d63f848762b3c531a82f726a11583.jpg

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To go back to the comment about "If it hits 4 feet back and 12 feet wide it obviously hit something". I say "crap" its a "dang miss".

 

But that's just me.

 

When I get ready to spot I take out my hearing aids. Put a patch over my left eye because on floaters.  Then try really hard to focus my trifocals on each and every target. Sometimes the other spotters agree with my version of events.

 

 

Edited by Castalia,SASS#18915
Lost my train of thought.
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PP,  I knew there was a reason I always get you to spot for me.  And I always bring an apple with me to the match!B)

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IMHO being in the right place is the best thing.....and of course looking and listening. I have seen many edge hits called as misses because the spotters see the dirt, water or mud fly.  

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Thankfully, I enjoy the fire and boom of warthog loads of Holy Black. Often, I have a spotter right behind me that can't see anything so they call a miss. The good spotters stand to the side. Remember, black powder shooters have the best memories. We haveto memorize the target positions before the first shot!!!  :)

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On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 3:15 AM, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Exceeding the speed of sound you say...sounds illegal to me. 1000 fps is the max...SHB page xyz zippity doo dah...so you're admitting to 1050 to 1150 depending on altitude, but who cares...I certainly don't. It's better that poof tink 8 days a week!

Rifles Are ALLOWED to do 1,400 FPS ...

 

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21 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

I only missed once or twice in that DA match...not bad for not picking up the gun in two years...did the scores ever come out for it?

 

You did very well,  You won the main match and the JFrame stage.  I won the 1911 stage.

 

Sent you a PM with the score sheet attached.

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4 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

You did very well,  You won the main match and the JFrame stage.  I won the 1911 stage.

 

Sent you a PM with the score sheet attached.

To be fair you shot a strong match all the way through and that's no easy feat on three very dissimilar platforms. I also did not shoot a J frame, but a K snubby which is not quite the same and provided a slight edge. Next time I will try the J, hopefully not with wadcutters. Well played Sir. I enjoyed your company immensely. 

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