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New Shooter's Handbook

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Page 4, under Ammunition Belts and Loops: 

Note: Any ammo carried to the firing line in an illegal/unapproved manner that is actually used for stage reloads falls under the “Use of illegally acquired ammunition” penalties. 

 

Doesn't this statement make all "Loading Blocks" illegal, since the Loading table is on the Firing Line?

 

Snakebite

 

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29 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Page 4, under Ammunition Belts and Loops: 

Note: Any ammo carried to the firing line in an illegal/unapproved manner that is actually used for stage reloads falls under the “Use of illegally acquired ammunition” penalties. 

 

Doesn't this statement make all "Loading Blocks" illegal, since the Loading table is on the Firing Line?

 

Snakebite

 

 

 

You're not realoading from the loading block. You're probably reloading with ammo on your belt or in a pocket.

 

Agree with Randy this doesn't apply to loading at the loading table.

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I understand.... I just would prefer to see it say: Any ammo carried to the Stage...……, We have many folks that fail to see the difference in the Firing line and the Stage. They are not the same.

 

Snakbite

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It’s talking about reloads, as I read it.

 

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Loading table, loading block. Not, reloading block. 

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No comment.  But, I want to... really badly!  :P 

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OK I know that some of you are saying "What's the big deal,  Snakebite is just being a @$$#0!&", but I'm NOT! Try this:

 

Can you lower the hammer on your handgun without RO approval while on the Loading Table?

Yes, you can lower it at the loading table without consent. The Loading Table is a part of the Firing Line. 

 

Can you lower the hammer on your handgun without RO approval while on the Stage?

No, it is a SDQ to do so even though the Stage is also a part of the Firing Line. 

 

Can you lower the hammer on your handgun without RO approval while on the Firing Line?

It depends where you are on the Firing Line. 

 

Can you reload with ammo that was carried to the Firing Line in a none approved manner?

Yes, you can... before you go to the stage, you must go to the Loading Table. Both are part of the Firing Line. You can carry your ammo in your Cleavage to the Loading Table if you want and still use it if you like, but you can not carry it in your Cleavage to the Stage and then use it. 

 

I bring this issue to a point because it is important that everyone understand that the STAGE is NOT the FIRING LINE, and you can NOT use the two terms interchangeably.  If the Big Guys do it, then the Rank and File will do it, so it needs to be corrected. Period! 

 

 

Snakebite 

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I would like to point out that the loading table and the unloading table are not always on the firing line as most people imagine the firing line to be. For example most loading and unloading tables at EOT are behind the firing line facing berms.

Edited by Flash

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Just now, Flash said:

I would like to point out that the loading table and the unloading table are not always on the firing line as most people imaging the firing line to be. For example most loading and unloading tables at EOT are behind the firing line facing berms.


 

Quote

 

Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table. 

...

Stage – synonymous with “Course of Fire” from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to the last shot fired. 

 

SHB "Glossary of Terms" pp.44-45

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I am compiling a few additional clarifications/corrections to the latest version of the SHB as they are discovered and brought to our attention.

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HEY!!  PaleWolf!!!

 

REMEMBER THIS???:lol::lol::lol:

IMG_2539.jpg

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The question came up recently re shooters with rifle butt-stock covers with ammo loops.

 

The original proposed clarification referred to the STAGE as opposed to the "firing line" (as defined). 

The 2012 clarification (see below) was never codified as such in the rulebooks.

When further clarification was requested for the most recent version, the text was inadvertently edited to "firing line"; which has been pointed out as "technically" applying to ammo strips/blocks and ammo boxes brought to the loading table.

 

The following clarification was made by the ROC at the 2012 WR TG meeting

(used to be covered under "Outlawed/Illegal Items", subject to the SDQ for "Use or presence of outlawed/illegal items")
 

Quote

CLARIFICATION: Ammunition-related (i.e. shotgun belts/bandoliers) “Outlawed/illegal” items will be covered under: The “Use of illegally-acquired ammunition” penalty (RO1 referenced to the SHB) 

SHB & RO1

 

Under current rules, ammunition for STAGE RELOADS may only be used if carried to the stage in an approved manner

(as listed on pages 3-4 of the SHB).

The penalty ("P" + Miss(es)) only applies if ammunition carried in an illegal/unapproved manner is actually USED for stage reloads.

That would include ammo in loops on a buttstock/forearm, hatband, sling, a secured bandolier, etc. 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add text

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7 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

1992 shb.jpg

Ah yes, way back when folks actually cowboyed up and accepted when they did something to earn a penalty. Now it takes an act of congress and a law degree to do so.

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2 hours ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Ah yes, way back when folks actually cowboyed up and accepted when they did something to earn a penalty. Now it takes an act of congress and a law degree to do so.

There will always be the small % of those who try to question and find loopholes in every rule made either for argument or advantage sake.  

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Back then there were two unwritten rules that dominated the game. They were:

1. If it looks Cowboy, it is Cowboy

2. If Gene, Roy and Hoppy wouldn't do it, then you can't do it.

 

Sounds kinda corny doesn't it, but at that point in time playing the game was at least as important as the shooting was. The shooting was just a part of playing the game, not the other way around. Dressing up, Costuming, was to the max, rules were few and just the embarrassment of being corrected was enough to stop someone from dong it again.   I don't believe these things are the case now days in most locations.  It is/was the Oldsters that taught the Newbies how the "The Game" was played. But many of those Oldsters have faded away, and many of those that are left and actually have a direct link with the past and actually know what this game is about are being swept out the door because of their old attitudes. THAT is a shame, and the "Game" will be poorer for it. I've heard it said that we can't go back... and that is true, and I would NOT want to go back to the time when we were shooting tiny targets out in the next zip code or to the totally subjective rules system.... that can't happen at this point. But I also don't want this game to turn into IPSC using a Cowboy gun. Its time that a certain group take the time to remember why this wonderful game was started in the first place.  Fancy awards, Blow and Go 12 second stages with ZERO game playing, Rodeo cowboy dress was never intended to be a part of this game.  

 

Snakebite

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11 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

1992 shb.jpg

 

$2.00...........or was that the membership fees in 1993 ;)

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4 hours ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Ah yes, way back when folks actually cowboyed up and accepted when they did something to earn a penalty. Now it takes an act of congress and a law degree to do so.

 

You remember those days too!!  It REALLY wasn't that long ago!!

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12 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Under current rules, ammunition for STAGE RELOADS may only be used if carried to the stage in an approved manner

(as listed on pages 3-4 of the SHB).

The penalty ("P" + Miss(es)) only applies if ammunition carried in an illegal/unapproved manner is actually USED for stage reloads.

That would include ammo in loops on a buttstock/forearm, hatband, sling, a secured bandolier, etc. 

Not wanting to cause any trouble here but just need to find out if the same applies for CAS as it does for WBAS. A discussion has just taken place on the Wild Bunch forum about this and it was determined that if you carry the ammo to the stage in an unapproved manor, but then stage the ammo (put it down on stage prop release it then pick it up) it can now be used legally? My opinion was that this really complicates things but the rule makers there seem to think it is fine. What say you?

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5 minutes ago, Flash said:

Not wanting to cause any trouble here but just need to find out if the same applies for CAS as it does for WBAS. A discussion has just taken place on the Wild Bunch forum about this and it was determined that if you carry the ammo to the stage in an unapproved manor, but then stage the ammo (put it down on stage prop release it then pick it up) it can now be used legally? My opinion was that this really complicates things but the rule makers there seem to think it is fine. What say you?

 

NO.

WBAS rules do NOT apply to CAS...and vice versa.

 

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WBAS is a different sport than CAS. They are both owned by SASS but have different firearm requirements and rules.

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14 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

NO.

WBAS rules do NOT apply to CAS...and vice versa.

 

I do know that WBAS and CAS have different rules but this is not a rule that is stated in either rule book so I just wanted to find out and why it does not apply in both. In CAS for example say you have a stage you are required to stage your pistols and you forget, then you can correct not staging them by staging your guns before you shoot them even if you forgot to stage them before the beep. The WBAS rule makers are applying this unwritten (at least I don't think it is written in either rule book) rule to using ammo during the course of fire. I am not trying to advocate this, in fact I don't like the fact that it is OK to do in WBAS. But if it is why isn't it in CAS under the same reasoning?

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12 minutes ago, Flash said:

I do know that WBAS and CAS have different rules but this is not a rule that is stated in either rule book so I just wanted to find out and why it does not apply in both. In CAS for example say you have a stage you are required to stage your pistols and you forget, then you can correct not staging them by staging your guns before you shoot them even if you forgot to stage them before the beep. The WBAS rule makers are applying this unwritten (at least I don't think it is written in either rule book) rule to using ammo during the course of fire. I am not trying to advocate this, in fact I don't like the fact that it is OK to do in WBAS. But if it is why isn't it in CAS under the same reasoning?

 

Probably because SASS has a specific rule forbidding it; and no one (that I'm aware of) has ever proposed such a change...unwritten or otherwise. regarding bringing ammunition to the stage for stage reloads.
The only exception to allow "correction" of ammo staging stage instructions applies when the SG ammo or reloads MUST be staged "off body" (e.g. in a box).

 

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I think we’re getting away from the point Snakebite is making. His concern about clarity in the text of the SHB is well founded and, IMHO, not nit-picky. As PWB points out, the “firing line” extends beyond the shooting positions on the stage; the SHB should not be ambiguous.

RR

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On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 12:27 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

I am compiling a few additional clarifications/corrections to the latest version of the SHB as they are discovered and brought to our attention.

 

 

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