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Black powder substitutes in SASS sanctioned side matches?

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One reason I prefer black powder over substitutes is visibility, as substitutes produce a white more obscuring cloud of smoke. Long Range matches aren't exactly rapid fire where obscured visibility is generally a problem. If the volume of smoke was the issue, what was the standard for testing rounds used in competition?

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31 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

One reason I prefer black powder over substitutes is visibility, as substitutes produce a white more obscuring cloud of smoke. Long Range matches aren't exactly rapid fire where obscured visibility is generally a problem. If the volume of smoke was the issue, what was the standard for testing rounds used in competition?

Unless the individuals who made the calls of DQ’s respond we may never know.

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The shooters were using loads of 37 grains FF 777 with a corn meal filler and .405 grain bullet, I’m no expert but that should have produced plenty of smoke. They were told the next day that they were DQ’d because the side match was for real BP only. 

 

  Quote

- Any propellant powder may be used (with the exception smokeless powder is not allowed in the Buffalo Single Shot competition). 

SHB p.31

(under SECTION 5 - SIDE MATCHES)

 

Edited by Yul Lose
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7 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

The shooters were using loads of 37 grains FF 777 with a corn meal filler and .405 grain bullet, I’m no expert but that should have produced plenty of smoke. They were told the next day that they were DQ’d because the side match was for real BP only. 

 

 

 

Through the miracle of the internet 37 grains of 777 is a over 3 cc in volume.  Plenty of smoke. 

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4 hours ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

From the Shooters Handbook.

BLACKPOWDER SHOOTING CATEGORIES Blackpowder category contestants are expected to understand they will contend with smoke obscured targets. To ensure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must produce smoke at least equivalent to a baseline load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of blackpowder (see Blackpowder – Testing section for additional requirements).

I believe this was the issue.

This rule specifies the smoke equivalent requirement, NOT the powder type !

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6 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

This rule specifies the smoke equivalent requirement, NOT the powder type !

BLACKPOWDER AMMUNITION
- Throughout this handbook, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder
substitute such as Pyrodex,777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for
muzzle loading firearms. Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited
as blackpowder substitutes.

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5 minutes ago, The Bearded Wonder said:

BLACKPOWDER AMMUNITION
- Throughout this handbook, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder
substitute such as Pyrodex,777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for
muzzle loading firearms. Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited
as blackpowder substitutes.

 

I agree.

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48 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I predict a significant decline in attendance at this match next year.

Perhaps we should get feedback from the club/MD, before we condemn the match.  I enjoy this match and look forward to it each year. 

 

BS

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22 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Perhaps we should get feedback from the club/MD, before we condemn the match.  I enjoy this match and look forward to it each year. 

 

BS

I agree also. It’s a fun match but I think it important to know the rules. 

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46 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I agree also. It’s a fun match but I think it important to know the rules. 

Unwritten last minute rules are hard to follow.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

Perhaps we should get feedback from the club/MD, before we condemn the match.  I enjoy this match and look forward to it each year. 

 

BS

I agree. 

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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Unwritten, Unexplained, Last Minute, not until the DAY AFTER are simply unacceptable.

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1 hour ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

Maybe this thread shouldn't fade away until we get some answers?

 

I agree with that, Charlie.  Here's my bump.

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1 hour ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

Maybe this thread shouldn't fade away until we get some answers?

8 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

 

I agree with that, Charlie.  Here's my bump.

 

 

 

I agree with both of you, but I don't see it happening. We don't know who was running the side match in question, nor do we know if they ever post here. Y'all got any ideas?

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On the face of it, it sure sounds like the people were supposed to win the match didn't, so the rules had to be changed. I would be very upset if that is the case because I believe CAS folks are above that. But there are two sides to each story so I don't want to pile on like the mass media until all the facts are in.

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I don't know the answer to that,  but one of the reasons given to be a SASS member is that all SASS sanctioned matches would have the same rules.

The SASS club should let us know what the rest of the story to set the record straight.  Or SASS headquarters should follow up on it.

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Has anyone that was actually at the match contacted the club and asked them??

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Has anyone that was actually at the match contacted the club and asked them??

Gunrunner Pete did when they DQ’d him. They said no BP subs allowed and the decision was made after the side match was shot.

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Well, now that they have shown themselves to be asinine, perhaps the unwashed masses can decide "after the match was shot" Not to attend their match next year.  Vote with your wallet and your FEET

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
Correct a spell
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Well, it might be a bit unreasonable to suggest the entire match should be avoided due to a seemingly ill advised decision made for the Long Range BP Rifle event. Although, I must admit, their silence is deafening.

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On 1/23/2019 at 5:06 PM, Cheatin Charlie said:

Maybe this thread shouldn't fade away until we get some answers?

+10000

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I just can't help feeling that there's at least one other side to this story.

 

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Although, I must admit, their silence is deafening.

 

 

Kinda like the NFL’s silence on the very obvious pass interference that wasn’t called late in the Saints Rams game.

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Bump.

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I hope that there is some rational explanation... Out of the blue rules after the match has started is not good for our game.

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Personally, I think bp subs are an abomination and would much rather the rule was changed to ban them (just my  opinion) but even I think this is pretty shady.  You don’t get to change the rules after the match.  Very bad form.

Edited by Doc Coles SASS 1188
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I have sent an email to the club and am currently waiting for either a reply or an update on the Wire from the Club. 

 

BS

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17 hours ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

Personally, I think bp subs are an abomination and would much rather the rule was changed to ban them (just my  opinion) but even I think this is pretty shady.  You don’t get to change the rules after the match.  Very bad form.

Please explain the rationale.

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

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32 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Please explain the rationale.

 

Substitutes don’t shoot like black, they don’t foul like black, they don’t present the same challenges in loading as black, they don’t smell like black, and they don’t smoke like black.  In my opinion, the modern subs are a way to get around these things for people who want to compete in the class without doing the work black requires.

 

Having said that, the rules are the rules and my opinion on substitutes is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Edited by Doc Coles SASS 1188
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1 hour ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

Substitutes don’t shoot like black, they don’t foul like black, they don’t present the same challenges in loading as black, they don’t smell like black, and they don’t smoke like black.  In my opinion, the modern subs are a way to get around these things for people who want to compete in the class without doing the work black requires.

 

Having said that, the rules are the rules and my opinion on substitutes is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

So you've loaded using BP substitutes...??

 

And some places don't allow the sale of real BP...so...

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Update

I had a discussion today with 2 of the principles that oversaw the long range side matches.  Here's the summary:

  • They received some bad input regarding the use of BP subs.  The SASS rules have since been reviewed and they acknowledge that they made a bad call.
  • They are going to retrieve the scores from the long range side match.
  • New award(s) will be made up and sent to those individuals that had originally earned the award.

This should bring this to a close.

Have a great weekend,

BS

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1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

Update

I had a discussion today with 2 of the principles that oversaw the long range side matches.  Here's the summary:

  • They received some bad input regarding the use of BP subs.  The SASS rules have since been reviewed and they acknowledge that they made a bad call.
  • They are going to retrieve the scores from the long range side match.
  • New award(s) will be made up and sent to those individuals that had originally earned the award.

This should bring this to a close.

Have a great weekend,

BS

Guess that's all they can do... Just sux that they didn't get the recognition at the match...

 

I'm surprised that with the officials being told that they made an incorrect call, that they didn't check immediately so that the error could be corrected at the awards.

 

Sorry... Unless I'm missing some info, I'm just not buying the explanation...

 

Phantom

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39 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

Substitutes don’t shoot like black, they don’t foul like black, they don’t present the same challenges in loading as black, they don’t smell like black, and they don’t smoke like black.  In my opinion, the modern subs are a way to get around these things for people who want to compete in the class without doing the work black requires.

I mostly shoot black because it makes sparks & flame and a satisfying boom different from the subs. There are times I use subs such as when I've run out of BP lubed bullets.

 

Given that I load both, the above statement is baffling to me. What "challenges" and "work" are sub users getting around?

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