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Wild Bunch Boards => Wild Bunch Rules Forum => Topic started by: Cardboard Cowboy on June 03, 2015, 05:31:27 AM

Title: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Cardboard Cowboy on June 03, 2015, 05:31:27 AM
Morning all,
  Had a situation at a recent match where I was the TO.  I was on the right side of the shooter so I was unable to see the controls of the gun.  Gun works properly for the 1st mag and reload.  Shooter finishes shooting 2nd mag, slide locks back.  When he drops his empty mag the slide closes.  I tell him to lock the slide back as he is loading his 3rd mag.  He hesitates and does as directed.  3rd and 4th mag changes slide locks properly and stays locked during reload.  All four mags were from a stand and deliver stage. 

  After the stage he ask me why he needed to lock the slide back as it was a slide lock malfunction.  In my opinion it was not a slide lock malfunction as the slide initially locked at the end of the string, it only closed when he dropped the mag.  I was also unsure if he may have hit the slide release, again I was on the opposite side of the controls so I was not able to see what he actually did.  He insisted that he did not hit the slide release during the mag change and it was the mag that caused the malfunction.

  He later talked with me and informed me he had borrowed a mag, and it was the one that was associated with the slide dropping, and it was the culprit.  He is not upset for the call, just not real comfortable with it.  I see the same shooter a week later at another match and he brings the subject up again.  He is convinced that he had a slide lock failure and should have been allowed to reload the mag with the slide forward. His interpretation of the rule is that he should be allowed to reload with the slide forward in this scenario.   We are just trying to get straight in our minds what is right in this scenario.  In my mind and the way I interpret the ruling, this situation called for the shooter to relock the slide open as it was not a slide lock failure.

  Any and all opinions and ruling are greatly appreciated.

Cardboard Cowboy
Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Garrison Joe on June 03, 2015, 06:09:36 AM
Oops, a typo edit attempt turned into a second reply.  Cleaned it up some and deleted the double tap.

Applicable rule is:

All reloads shall be from slide lock. (Failure to do so, MSV)
THE ONLY EXCEPTION to the slide-lock rule is if after firing all the rounds in the magazine the slide lock fails and the shooter needs to reload  without  moving,  one  may  do  so  without  locking  the  slide  back  before inserting the new magazine.
Page 7, WB Shooter's Handbook

The only point of contention between you two seems to be that the rules do not fully-enough define "slide lock failure."

I would apply a common-sense definition of failure so that it includes what happened to this shooter.   In other words, slide lock is supposed to hold the slide back until it is released by the shooter.   One part of the slide lock function worked perfectly - it engaged when last round was fired.   One function probably failed - it did not stay locked when the shooter ejected the magazine.  Or, alternatively, the shooter bumped the lock enough to release it.   

Since there could have been a failure, I would apply Benefit of Doubt in shooter's favor to this call and would not call that a reload from slide down, AKA "Tactical Reload"   Shooter did not gain any time by having things happen this way - it would have been faster if the slide had not fallen, because the shooter had to additionally rack the slide to charge the gun.   Give the shooter the benefit, and declare that the slide lock failed to hold the slide, and call it a No Call.

And I would wonder why the shooter still brings this up at the next match - let it go.  Sometimes calls go your way, sometimes they don't.   Don't upset folks by bringing something like that up again at a later match.  Get over it.

Good luck, GJ
Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Cardboard Cowboy on June 03, 2015, 06:52:46 AM
There is no contention between us GJ, we're actually good friends.  Just trying to get the right call for this so I will better apply it, if/when it happens again.  I see so much more disparity in WB, as to the rules being enforced properly.  It should have been a no call, but with the pace of the shooter and the slide going forward, I just yelled slide when it closed.  Throughout the rest of the match this never happened again, he never used that possible bad mag after this incident.  It is still my belief that there was/is nothing wrong with the slide lock on his weapon.  It was the mag that caused it.  Thanks for the reply.

Cardboard Cowboy
Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on June 03, 2015, 07:19:00 AM
You made a good call.  I see the rule as pertaining to the slide not locking open at the end of a string.  As a shooter I would have locked it back before reloading to avoid controversy.
Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Cardboard Cowboy on June 03, 2015, 07:37:42 AM
That is exactly how I saw it JFN.  The slide lock worked as it was supposed to.  It would have been completely different if the slide locked at first and then went forward prior to the mag being released.  That would have been a slide lock malfunction.  Since it was only one mag that was causing this, we have a mag malfunction, which is not mentioned in the ruling on reloads.  The way I read the rules, especially since "THE ONLY EXCEPTION" is very large and bold, "is if after firing all the rounds in the magazine the slide lock fails"~does not say if when removing mag slide closes.  And I would have done the same on locking the slide back if it closed for any reason, muscle memory just goes into work and it is a non thought.

Cardboard Cowboy.
Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Garrison Joe on June 03, 2015, 07:57:30 AM
Well, I would declare that both of you fellers are being proverbial [email protected]@@[email protected]@@@  for the "fault" we are discussing. 

Looking for a way to award a Minor Safety when it's pretty clear the shooter was trying to do the right thing.

The OP said he could NOT see if the shooter pulled the slide release lever down as he dropped the magazine, and now you are wanting to ASSUME he did bump the slide release lever even though mechanical malfunction may have caused slide to drop (facts stated earlier - it only happened that one time in the match, and the shooter believes a borrowed magazine was faulty and did not get a secure slide lock accomplished).

A pretty clear case of "looking for something to penalize the shooter on" from what has been stated here.

Good luck, GJ
Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Cardboard Cowboy on June 03, 2015, 08:16:58 AM
I never said anything about assuming he bumped the slide release.  Might need to re-read what I wrote.  I said a few times I think it was the mag that caused it.  Not looking at awarding any MS, hence the reason I told him to lock the slide back!  He did have a secure lock, hence the reason the slide locked until he dropped the mag.

"A pretty clear case of "looking for something to penalize the shooter on" from what has been stated here."  Nope the way I see it, let a possible penility go on one shooter, you penilize all others.  This is the reason I told him to lock the slide back.  If I wanted to award a penility, to my friend, I would have kept my mouth shut and then awarded the MS for loading a mag with the slide forward.

I'll wait for some powers that be to answer the question.  I don't want to hear about common sense, it has nothing to do with common sense.  The rules state "THE ONLY EXCEPTION", which this case does not fall into.  The lock worked, then some other action caused it to fail.

You also mentioned: AKA "Tactical Reload", might want to re-read what I wrote, for a second time, and look up what a Tactical Reload is.  Never said anything about a round in the chamber.

Good Luck to you

Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: J. Frank Norfleet on June 03, 2015, 08:19:03 AM
CC  Don't split too many hairs, generally a slide lock malfunction is caused by a bad mag or weak mag spring.  I'm just looking at when it happened.

Wow, Joe having a bad day?  No, I'm not looking for reasons to award a MS.  I just stated that the simplest reading of the rule is a failure to lock after the last round is fired.  In this situation: as a shooter I would have locked the slide back before reloading (which I have done) and as a TO I would have said "slide" to the shooter.  My goal is to avoid giving the shooter a MS and avoid controversy over a rule.  If the MD and shooter disagree with my instructions as a TO, give the shooter a reshoot.
Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Cardboard Cowboy on June 03, 2015, 08:35:19 AM
Hey JFN,
  I do know what causes slide lock malfunctions.  I've been building 1911's now for going on 35+ years.  Took my apprentanceship at Rock Island Arsenal (DOD one, not that fakey Rock Island Armory) back in the late 70's.  Been working for various governemnt agencys since as a weapon specialist/gun smith.  That's what I hate most about these forums, you never know who/what the capabilities of the person on the other end of wire are.  Have a great day.

Cardboard Cowboy
Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Garrison Joe on June 03, 2015, 08:50:57 AM
Please don't make personal comments a part of commenting on a rule interpretation.  It really is not conducive to getting folks to discuss a topic. And it's ad hominem.

Let's get back to the discussion instead.   ;D

A mag follower that jams forward slightly can be resting on a slide release lever (from the inside of mag well),  I have found, and that can jostle the release enough to have the slide drop as the mag falls past it. 

You folks are wanting to make that a failure mode separate from the slide lock not holding the mag.   I say you are trying to place a MSV on a shooter when you cannot really tell what the fault was and if the cause was mechanical or operator malfunction. 

There has to be a simpler way to interpret this rule,  and I'm suggesting that we should "No Call" any slide drop while reloading if the slide ever got a stationary slide lock.   As well as the condition of the slide lock not holding on last round fired, which the rules already have put in writing, relieving the shooter from the penalty.  The penalty of having to see the slide is down and racking the slide seems enough, even when the slide falls at some point after reaching lock but before the mag gets inserted fully.

We probably can all see if the slide ever locked back, even temporarily, before shooter inserted a new mag.  And we probably can see when slide failed to lock back at all, and the shooter then loaded a mag.  I am in support of No Calling either of those two conditions.

I think the "loaded mag with slide down" penalty is trying to prevent a true Tactical Reload.  Not the accidental loading if the slide happens to fall for any reason on an empty chamber and the shooter continues to to insert the mag and then has to rack the slide.   That is something I can call reliably.   

Why is that call much easier to make?  Because the shooter will have to rack the slide and the TO will be able to see EITHER that a live round pops out (in that case, it was Tactical, and "MSV" applies); or that no round is ejected, in which case "No Call."  Becomes very simple and easy to watch for and call.   

And there is physical evidence resting on the ground at the shooter's feet to keep the shooter from saying, "no, there was no round in chamber when I loaded."

Good luck, GJ

Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Cardboard Cowboy on June 03, 2015, 09:34:17 AM
First off Joe, I was not attacking your character.  I was responding to being called a Hard A$$ and looking to award penalties that I never mentioned and never even thought of awarding.  I also don't like comments of what my assumptions are, when none were ever implied. 

back to the situation......

What I was looking for was a proper clarification.  The problem with the simpler way to interpret this rule, it is a rule that states a specific occurrence.  To make it a no call would be great, but that is not what we have.  I know we're not cowboys shooting 1911's, but our rules are sure going the same way as the cowboys.

I see you're reasoning on if the slide is forward, on a reload, and shooter racks the slide and no round is ejected it's a no call.  There was nothing in the chamber during the reload, therefore it cannot be a tactical reload.  But then can we not also apply this same logic/thinking to the model 12 shotgun?  Why must the shooter declare a model 12, and then pull the trigger and show the TO the weapon is not cocked?  If he fails to do this menial task it's a SDQ.  If by chance the gun is cocked as soon as the buzzer goes off and he attempts to rack it, guess what happens.  He's got egg on his face and just earned a SDQ.

Since the slide forward is only a MS maybe we should go the route of the finger in the trigger guard?  It is also a MS yet in the rule book it states that "Typically a shooter is given a verbal warning, FINGER! the first time.  Then a repeat earns the penalty.  So maybe we should make the slide forward a warning the first time, as the shooter has gained no advantage, it's actually a dis-advantage.  Naturally this is only if there is no movement of the shooter with the slide forward.

Cardboard Cowboy
Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Wild Bodie Tom on June 03, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Slide release, magazine issue.... something else?
Still a malfunction....
Unless a round comes out when its racked..... carry on........

Just sayin.

This is very often misunderstood. Just try to keep it simple at the local level, which I believe is the point of the question in the first place.
Benefit to the shooter.

Title: Re: WTC~Slide Lock
Post by: Happy Jack on June 04, 2015, 10:07:40 AM
NO CALL.   IF you can't prove beyond any doubt that the shooter purposefully released the slide lock it is a Slide Lock failure.  Sometimes calls go your way, some times they don't. I see both sides of the argument here, but the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

As for a couple of other things brought up that are not in the OP:

The model 12 rule pertains to a firearm BEFORE the firearm is ever fired and the COF actually starts.

The one "FINGER" warning is common in every semi-auto competition sport.