The SASS Wild Bunch Forum

Wild Bunch Boards => Wild Bunch Rules Forum => Topic started by: Abe E.S. Corpus on December 03, 2015, 05:26:19 AM

Title: Llama .45
Post by: Abe E.S. Corpus on December 03, 2015, 05:26:19 AM
My club discontinued WBAS but another club in my area is going to offer matches in 2016 so I am starting to hear more "is this legal for Wild Bunch" questions.  This one came from a local shooter earlier this week:  is the Llama .45 a "1911 type" pistol?  There is one for sale locally.

My search suggested that most parts will not interchange with 1911 parts but the Llama will usually accept (how comforting) a 1911 magazine.  From the photos I gather that the pistol has the same functional parts as a 1911, including a grip safety.

It has an external extractor but so do a couple of other brands that seem to be accepted as 1911 style pistols.

It does appear to have a low rib atop the slide, but if it is integral and not "attached" it arguably is not covered by the prohibition.

I already expressed my opinion to the shooter about  quality and parts availability.

Legal for WBAS?
Title: Re: Llama .45
Post by: Sgt. John Campbell on December 03, 2015, 06:09:54 AM
The top rib on the slide is what makes it prohibited for WBAS matches.  The only pistols with this feature that are authorized are the Colt Gold Cup Series 1911's.
Title: Re: Llama .45
Post by: Garrison Joe on December 03, 2015, 06:15:38 AM
IMHO, it is likely the Llama's slide rib will be ok,as the Gold Cup is cited in the rules as an example of a rib manufactured into the top of the slide, rather than attached later as a target sight device.  The rule literally is:

No  external “rib” allowed  on  top  of  slide. This  means  no  external  rib  such  as  a
BoMar  may  be  attached  to  the  top  of  the  slide  by  screws,  welding,  or  any  other

That Llama rib was machined in when slide was made.   Not attached.

But, some Spanish made copies do not have a grip safety.  A functional grip safety not being present would certainly be a "killer" for complying with WB rules, either category.

Shooting the gun in Modern category opens the rules requirements up considerably.   Make sure he reads over all the rules in the WB shooter's handbook.
Title: Re: Llama .45
Post by: Sgt. John Campbell on December 03, 2015, 06:21:23 AM
Directly from the latest WBAS Shooter's Handbook:

 " No external “rib” allowed on top of slide. This means no external rib such as a
BoMar may be attached to the top of the slide by screws, welding, or any other
means. The top of the slide may be flattened, serrated, and/or matted to reduce
glare. Original Colt Gold Cup ribs are legal. "

Don't try to interpret the rules, the rules are pretty set forward, and they even go so far as to address interpreting the rules:

" In each of the respective sections, allowed modifications are listed.
Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because
a firearm was available, does not necessarily mean it is legal for competition. Only
the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal. "

Hence, " Original Colt Gold Cup ribs are legal. " means exactly that, only original Colt Gold Cup ribs are legal for WBAS.
Title: Re: Llama .45
Post by: Garrison Joe on December 03, 2015, 07:16:38 AM
Sorry, but I believe you are the one who is interpreting the rules to be exclusive instead of meaning what they say, IMHO.  The word ONLY appears nowhere in that section. You have added it when you wrote about the rule.   Please stick to the rules.

The factory-machined low rib is not a modification.  It was manufactured that way.  The rib was not attached.  The rules prohibit an "attached external" rib.  Really pretty clear.

Good luck, GJ
Title: Re: Llama .45
Post by: Boggus Deal on December 03, 2015, 08:42:34 AM
I believe you're both right and you're both wrong. I don't have my rule notes handy but I believe the reason the Llama isn't legal is that it is a vented rib. The Colt rib is not. That is not 100% clear in the current published rule book. I will try to reach out to Happy Jack who does not have much internet access while he is at the convention.
As has also been stated, most Llamas also are not true 1911 pistols, with the same function grip safeties.
Basically, to answer the original poster's question, only 1911/1911A1 style pistols and copies are allowed. Llamas are not true copies.
Title: Re: Llama .45
Post by: Sgt. John Campbell on December 03, 2015, 09:31:40 AM
Also of note on the Llama pistol, there is a flair at the bottom of the magazine well, not found on the 1911.  Also, the front of the slide is nor scalloped, like a 1911.  Remember, in Modern Class, the pistol with magazine inserted can weigh no more than 42 oz.  These areas of extra steel found on the Llama pistols will add weight, and will likely put the pistol over the weight limit.