The SASS Wild Bunch Forum

Wild Bunch Boards => Wild Bunch Rules Forum => Topic started by: mortman on April 18, 2018, 07:58:16 AM

Title: Cocked and locked?
Post by: mortman on April 18, 2018, 07:58:16 AM
Well..

OK for Multigun
OK for USPSA
OK for IDPA.

But not OK for Wild Bunch?
Why? 
Are we more unsafe than all the other shooters?

 8)
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Flash on April 18, 2018, 08:04:46 AM
I would think the reason is that people have shot themselves by taking the safety off too soon when drawing the 1911 and why take a chance for that to happen? If a round is not chambered until you have the gun pointed down range there is lass a chance for someone getting shot by accident.
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: mortman on April 18, 2018, 08:12:55 AM
See above, that is to say that thousands of 1911 stage starts have begun cocked and locked.

If C&L had been found to be an unsafe condition resulting in accidents, they would have changed the rules by now.

Texas Rangers have been carrying cocked and locked every day for almost 100 years.

Are Wild Bunch shooters considered to be stupider or more incompetent than all the others?

 8)
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Flash on April 18, 2018, 08:21:54 AM
I carry cocked and locked. But I would not want to see someone get shot in the foot at a WB meet because they are not trained like I am. I know many instances where LEO's have shot themselves because they took the safety off before clearing the holster and they are trained so...
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: mortman on April 18, 2018, 08:38:39 AM

Rinse, repeat:

If C&L had been found to be an unsafe condition resulting in accidents, they would have changed the rules by now.

 8)
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Flash on April 18, 2018, 08:42:50 AM
Look, I am just giving my opinion on why the rules are the way they are for Wild Bunch. I would love to shoot cocked and locked too. Would be fun unless someone shoots themselves in the foot like has happened many times including Texas Rangers.
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: mortman on April 18, 2018, 08:59:10 AM
" I would love to shoot cocked and locked too. Would be fun unless someone shoots themselves in the foot."

Me too.

 8)
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Garrison Joe on April 18, 2018, 09:00:39 AM
IMHO, and if I remember right a discussion on this several years ago:

One major factor that set the WB initial pistol condition (condition 3) is:

SASS matches (WB or Cowboy) are run under their concept of maintaining a Cold Range except when shooter is explicitly allowed by command (in our case, a beep) to chamber a round in the 1911 and start firing.

Carrying fully loaded, cocked & locked (condition 1) would not qualify the range as cold (until shooter is started on his run).  Because the 1911 being in loaded status (by SASS definition) at the loading table and during the walk to the firing line would mean the range is no longer a "cold range."

We don't do the 97 or Mod 12 shotgun in "Condition 1" either.   And with no safety on many of the rifles allowed to be used, and none on the 97 shotgun either, they have no real Condition 1, but are ready to fire with a trigger pull or hard jolt that trips the hammer.   So, uniform gun handling from "condition 3" is how WB does things.

For the condition numbers, see: https://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

Good luck, GJ
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Flash on April 18, 2018, 09:06:55 AM
One major factor that set the WB initial pistol condition (condition 3) is:

SASS matches (WB or Cowboy) are run under their concept of maintaining a Cold Range except when shooter is explicitly allowed by command (in our case, a beep) to start firing.

Carrying fully loaded, cocked & locked (condition 1) would not qualify the range as cold (until shooter is started on his run).  Because the 1911 being in loaded status (by SASS definition) at the loading table and during the walk to the firing line would mean the range is no longer a "cold range."

For the condition numbers, see: https://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm
Thank you for this information. You don't hear this talked about in the shooter handbook or RO manuals unless I missed it. Good information!
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Happy Jack on April 18, 2018, 09:40:48 AM
GJ is right about the reason for starting the stage condition 3. SASS overall guidelines. However we require the thumb safety to be checked for proper function on EVERY pistol at EVERY match.  Therefore we are considering coming up with a rule that would justify its use sometime during the stage.  Just thinking about it. NOT making any changes soon.
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: mortman on April 18, 2018, 10:02:17 AM
“Load and make ready.”

 8)
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: marshal stone on April 19, 2018, 05:09:10 PM
“Load and make ready.”

 8)

That's the way other shooting sports do it.
Maintains a cold range until the RO gives the above command at the first shooting position.

Are we ready for this? Not sure but as Happy Jack pointed out in the thinking process for the, hopefully, not to distant future.

Marshal Stone
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Tully Mars on April 23, 2018, 06:49:17 AM
One big difference between WB and the other shooting sports is the proximity of the spotters and brass pickers to the shooter. We shoot from store fronts and props that put the spotters on the firing line or closer to it than other shooting sports. In Wild Bunch we're counting as the shooter shoots, not after when targets are taped and steel reset.

We have more instances of spotters or loading or unloading people being swept than any other shooting sport I've been to. If we now go fully locked and cocked without changing other aspects of the game we will in time have someone get shot. At least that's the way I see it.

Personally I'm a bit concerned that the new rule regarding tactical reloads may lead to someone getting shot in time. I'm not saying we Wild Bunch shooters are stupid or have unsafe gun handling skills. Only that the chances of being swept with a loaded or unloaded gun is greater than other shooting sports when our firing line is perpendicular to the targets. If we were moving down range and away from the firing line I'd feel differently.

Tully
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Jorge on April 23, 2018, 07:53:54 AM
Our current condition may be safer, generally.  Current debate noted.
But we all start the same, having to rack the 1911 before use, so what difference does it make?
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Tully Mars on April 23, 2018, 02:45:29 PM
Our current condition may be safer, generally.  Current debate noted.
But we all start the same, having to rack the 1911 before use, so what difference does it make?

"So what difference does it make'? Really? We shoot to slide lock, we never move with the slide forward without penalties to the shooter. If you're saying all pistol sports start the same, your incorrect. We rack our gun on the clock from a static position, others load and make ready before the "beep". In other pistol sports you're pistol is always ready to go. Big difference!

Going locked and cocked implies Wild Bunch will move towards moving with HOT guns and not shooting to slide lock.

P.S. Other shooting sports have classes, certifications and memberships showing you've been schooled in how to properly handle your firearms. We let everyone walk up and shoot. 

We have a 170 degree rule with the guns. At 175 degrees we have spotters, brass pickers, TO's and others. Do you really want 5 degrees between you and a hot pistol? I don't.  The only way around it is downrange movement instead of lateral movement on the firing line, this means ranges with deeper bays, difficulty spotting for misses, downrange to reset, more man power and so on.

Almost all of us have been swept by a 1911 with the slide locked back. How would you feel about a HOT 1911 with someone's finger on the trigger sweeping you?




Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Jorge on April 23, 2018, 04:53:01 PM
My post may have been misunderstood.
I am in agreement with keeping the 1911 uncharged until used, for the safety reasons outlined.
My point was that since it must be charged before use, IN SASS WILD BUNCH, we all start with the same condition, that is, having to rack the pistol before use.  Why is that a problem?
I do not think that SASS Wild Bunch needs to be USPSA with the firearms that we use.  To me, it seems that some would like it to be, though
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Tully Mars on April 23, 2018, 07:45:51 PM
Jorge I apologize for misreading your intent and taking out my frustrations on you. There was a time I was all for going full USPSA in WB, but I would not be a supporter of that anymore.

Tully
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Blackfoot on April 24, 2018, 05:05:04 AM
We don't have to do it a certain way or do a certain thing just because it is done that way in other pistol disciplines.  For those shooters who want to have practice drawing and firing from condition one, there are plenty of other shooting disciplines that offer that opportunity.   :)

Blackfoot
Title: Re: Cocked and locked?
Post by: Jackaroo on May 13, 2018, 08:34:27 PM
Well..

OK for Multigun
OK for USPSA
OK for IDPA.

But not OK for Wild Bunch?
Why? 
Are we more unsafe than all the other shooters?

Because these other sports do it ,it doesn't mean we have to copy them! Each sport has it's own set of rules, if you don;t like WB for that reason you are free to choose one of those others. :D
Just like Formula One, or Indy Cars, both have their own rules.
 8)