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Wild Bunch Boards => Wild Bunch Rules Forum => Topic started by: Allie Mo on April 24, 2018, 10:34:08 AM

Title: Tactical Reloads
Post by: Allie Mo on April 24, 2018, 10:34:08 AM
can confuse the shooters and counters. :o
Things observed at the 2018 CA State WBAS match.
Confused Shooter: After tactical reload fired one and walked with slide forward.
Confused Counters: Unsure what happened with delay in firing seventh shot. Happened several times.
Confused Shooter and Counter: Shooter did not place second round of DT after tactical reload and engaged next target instead, then finished with one live round remaining. Two counters called it correctly; one counter and TO thought shooter was clean.  Shooter cleared it up by showing us he had a live round remaining.

This was my first match since the okay of tactical reloads. So, one might think I had a problem with it. I'm not sure that was the case. I do think it would get easier as they are encountered more frequently.

I'd like to know if others have had problems and if they diminished with frequency of observation of TRs.


Allie Mo

PS I did not do any TRs. I didn't have any problems counting to seven. I was worried about that. The nature of the scenarios helped with that. Also, the majority of stages had seven rifle, which was helpful.

PPS I was exhausted. This is not a sport that you can drop for eight months then shoot for three days.
Title: Re: Tactical Reloads
Post by: Happy Jack on April 25, 2018, 10:59:31 AM
Allie, the reason for allowing tactical reloads is that it is NOT unsafe and a common practice for all sports with semi-auto handguns. We didn't allow them for a long time. As I stated in previous posts they are legal BUT with a limited round count like we have in Wild Bunch they are almost always a bad idea. Many shooters attempted them at WR with poor results. At the Western Territorial these last 2 days I think most learned their lesson at EOT and didn't attempt them although there were 2 stages that were certainly "tactical reload friendly".  I know of only 1 shooter who did one on one of those stages and it was very successful.  Just because you are allowed to do something that is safe doesn't mean it is always an advantage.
Title: Re: Tactical Reloads
Post by: Tully Mars on May 07, 2018, 07:04:27 AM
There was a lot of confusion regarding TR's, shooters, counters and TO's. You did an awesome job staying on top of it as a spotter and suck to your guns when you were right and everyone else was not.

Happy Jack,
Tactical reloads are not unsafe and are a good thing to know how to do. However we had one AD during a TR at the state match and others moved with the slide forward and a round in the chamber. I still contend that the proximity of the spotters, brass pickers, TO's and others makes it more likely an accident will occur. Yes that could have happened anytime before the TR were allowed, but it's more likely now. I can think of many instances in WB of folks being swept with the 1911 and the slide locked back, how far of a stretch is it for a shooter to do a TR, lose count and move, sweep someone and have an AD?

I don't want to sound like chicken little, but I have my concerns. If we were moving down range away from the spotters, TO's and others I wouldn't be as concerned, but that's just not practical.

Title: Re: Tactical Reloads
Post by: trooper on May 12, 2018, 12:13:10 AM
At my most recent WB match here in Australia there were 2 stages where a tactical reload offered a benefit.... but I suspect I was the only shooter at the match to actually do so...on both at least.  I feel perhaps far more comfortable with the concept as an IPSC shooter of some years experience.  Talking to others at the match they generally saw the downside of doing something they were NOT used to...and so refrained.

I think its a great addition (as is the 7 rd mag useage after all, that's what the gun was designed for , right?) and that the game is just getting better.   Yes, the RO needs to be on the ball...but that is nmot new, especially in WB.
Title: Re: Tactical Reloads
Post by: Legendary Lawman on May 13, 2018, 11:00:02 AM
The rule changes on reloading the 1911, while allowing a tactical reload (TR), are much broader.  It has taken the worry out of reloading especially when something goes wrong.  Now if you have a malfunction or drop a mag, you can reload without worrying that your slide isn’t locked back.  We saw lots of those penalties in the “old” days for something that was not a safety issue.  It has now been addressed.

Even though I shoot some IPSC, I can screw up enough without trying to think through a tactical reload.  While I have seen some done well –  most shooters have lost time trying.

In these early days of the new rules, if the shooter lets the spotters know that they will be doing a TR, it goes a lot smoother.  If the RO and spotters are on their game, however, it does not need to be said.  At a couple of matches, in the safety briefing, all shooters were reminded about the TR so that it was fresh in their mind.

Unlike Tully’s experience, we have not seen a single instance of a shooter breaking the 170˚ or sweep anyone this year even though we have been to 3 major matches and quite a few monthly WB matches.  To address Tully’s concerns, we need to impress upon ROs their duty to be within arms reach of the shooter to physically be able to stop them breaking the 170˚.  I know that is not always possible with fast shooters, but it is not usually the fast shooters who break that rule.

We have been disappointed in a number of trained ROs who seem to have a laissez-faire approach to ROing.  We try and correct this with positive suggestions and demonstration of the best position to be in to stop a shooter committing a safety infraction.  Good ROing will keep us all safe.
Title: Re: Tactical Reloads
Post by: Tully Mars on May 13, 2018, 08:20:56 PM
Legendary Lawman,

We had a shooter on my posse at Winter Range sweep the loading table sweeping as far as the expeditor position going far past the 170. The slide was locked back in this case. Is it really so far of a stretch for this happening with a loaded gun? Sure it always could have happened, but we have had folks do a TR and lose track of the round count and move already earning the penalty.

I was the one swept at the expeditor position and made the call. The shooter was moving very fast away from the TO who wouldn't have had the opportunity to stop the shooter if he wanted to. That TO is extremely experienced and known to both of us.

The new slide forward rule says not stop the shooter if they move with the slide forward, to wait till there at the next position to assess the penalty. So we are actually giving the shooter a chance to move away from the TO with this ruling without being stopped. This gives the shooter a head start away from the TO.

I may very well have that laissez-faire approach to ROing, but I've had the ability to stop many a shooter over the years from moving with the slide forward. Once the shooter is moving away it would be very difficult for anyone to stop them. Plus if the slide happens to be forward and the gun hot is it best to interfere if the shooter is sweeping someone or to let them get to the next position then address it? As a TO I wouldn't want my attempt to stop the shooter to cause them to have an AD. It shouldn't be put on the RO as to weather an accident happens, we make every attempt at safety and safety is my only concern with this current rule.

Tactical reloads are great in the appropriate setting. When Wild Bunch moves to all downrange movement, away from the spotters, brass pickers and such I'm all for it. Otherwise I'm not overly wild about it.

Apparently I'm the only Wild Bunch shooter that's been swept or seen it occur?

Title: Re: Tactical Reloads
Post by: Legendary Lawman on May 14, 2018, 09:13:34 AM
Howdy Tully

My “laissez-faire” comment was certainly not directed at you.  Not only are you a great WB shooter but you set a wonderful example for others including when you RO.

If you have had the problem of being swept there must be others.  I will make some enquiries as we have two more state shoots we hope to attend before EOT.

We have a lot of very good ROs in WB but at the last couple of state matches we have been at we have also seen some bad habits creeping in.  You have already pointed out some concerns and it behooves us to make sure our ROs are “on the job” all the time.

I look forward to seeing you at EOT and we can discuss this some more.  I think we all appreciate you expressing your concerns.
Title: Re: Tactical Reloads
Post by: Tully Mars on May 14, 2018, 12:40:51 PM
Legendary Lawman,

I took no offense to the laissez-faire comment and I realize that my RO style is to not keep up with the shooter while they are moving. Personally I think trying to run with every shooter just wears RO's out and the chances of being able to stop something from occurring is very slight.

It seems to me that I'm taking the wrong direction with my argument, it's not an argument against tactical reloads at all. It's just that in my opinion they may lead to a miss counting of the rounds fired by the shooter leaving it more likely to have movement with a loaded gun, once there's movement sweeping is a possibility. My only concern is safety.  We have a closer proximity to spotters, brass pickers and such than other shooting sports. Think about loading and unloading tables at some of the matches you and I have shot together, they are essentially inline with the firing line. How far of a stretch is it that they could be swept? We have a great safety record and just want to see that continue. Now that, that's all said I've talked to others and I'm currently rethinking my position on the whole thing.

We will be unable to attend EOT and will have to discuss it at another point in time.