Author Topic: Long gun sequence  (Read 392 times)

Jorge

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Long gun sequence
« on: December 03, 2018, 06:55:44 PM »
In the New Handbook, it is indicated that the long guns are to be loaded with rounds to complete the initial sequence (for that gun) only (other rounds are Illegal rounds).
Is the sequence defined as the use of the long gun until another gun is used?
Would this usually be outlined in the stage description?

Boggus Deal

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2018, 09:21:24 PM »
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're asking but, there is no penalty for overloading the gun. Only if you leave live ammo in it or use that extra ammo.

Garrison Joe

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2018, 09:35:54 PM »
Jorge - you wrote
Quote
In the New Handbook, it is indicated that the long guns are to be loaded with rounds to complete the initial sequence (for that gun)

Can you cite the page number you think you found words like that?  I don't see it in Shooter's Handbook.

Thanks, GJ


OK, now I see what you are referring to.
Under rifle and shotgun range operations, SHB says
Quote
magazines may be loaded with the number of rounds required for the initial target sequence.

Usually the term "sequence" is the same as "shooting string" in Wild Bunch.  Shooting String is defined (last couple of pages of the handbook) as:

Quote
Shooting String – shots from one type of firearm prior to use of the next type of firearm engaged.

Let's say, rifle was going to be fired as first gun, but from two positions, 5 rounds from each.   Then shotgun, then rifle again for 2 more loaded-from-person rounds.  Your "initial sequence" would be the first 10 rounds all from rifle.   You would be penalized if you loaded 12 rounds, both for not following loading table procedures (can only load for the initial sequence), and for restaging the rifle with 2 rounds in magazine while you fired shotgun.  IMHO.

Unfortunately, the term "initial sequence" is not defined.  If the Rules Committee provides us a DIFFERENT definition now than what Shooting String is, all bets are off.

Good luck, GJ
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 09:51:31 PM by Garrison Joe »
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Boggus Deal

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2018, 09:58:11 PM »

   
Joe,
Would you kindly show me where any of the handbooks say there is a penalty for overloading the long gun? That rule was removed years ago and if it is still in there, we need to fix it.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 10:21:15 PM by Boggus Deal »

J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2018, 10:42:08 PM »
Wow Joe, do you have to say something about every one of BD posts? You remind me of my male dog. When another dog pees he has to rush over and pee on top of it.
 :)
JFN
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Garrison Joe

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2018, 11:44:44 PM »

   
Joe,
Would you kindly show me where any of the handbooks say there is a penalty for overloading the long gun? That rule was removed years ago and if it is still in there, we need to fix it.

Nope, I didn't write anything about the overloading of a long gun.  As long as extra rounds are removed from the gun before discarding it, overloading does not create a penalty situation. 

But the new rules, as Jorge pointed out, have what I believe is new wording about "only can load at loading table for the initial sequence" in which the gun is used.  Which as far as I can tell, means the initial shooting string that a gun could be used in, where the same gun will be used again after another type of gun is used.

That is the point that I believe Jorge is concerned about.

Good luck, GJ

Correction:

OK, did some digging into the older rules sets.  The wording that Jorge was calling out about "loading rounds only for the initial sequence" has been in the handbook since about 2013.  Between SHB versions I have from 2012 and a later one from 2013, the words "rounds required for the initial target sequence" were put in to replace "rounds required by the stage". 

So, the rules haven't changed recently.  What I explained  earlier - that loading for the shooting string you will (first) do with each of the long guns - is still a good explanation of what the rules mean.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

So the example of a stage where rifle is shot 5 rounds at position 1, then 5 more at Position 2, then shotgun at position 3, then 2 rifle (reloads) at position 4 - would allow loading 10 rounds at the Loading table, not 12, and not limiting it to just the 5 rounds used at Position 1.

Good luck, GJ 


« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 12:54:30 AM by Garrison Joe »
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Boggus Deal

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2018, 07:56:18 AM »
Joe,
I took screen shots of these posts and the one where you said it was perfectly legal to use a factory installed Cutts Compensator. Again, you've conveniently edited it here, after the fact, to not make it look like that's what you meant. But you didn't edit your post on the SASS wire.

Garrison Joe

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2018, 09:55:40 AM »
Quote
But you didn't edit your post on the SASS wire.

Here's the last of my thread entries about Cutts Compensators on the SASS wire. 

Quote
   From 11/25/2018
OK, the Wild Bunch rules committee has today ruled the Cutts Compensator illegal for use on shotguns in Wild Bunch matches. 
They had believed that the Shotgun-Barrel section rule:

    Compensating ports are not allowed.

was also meant to disqualify a Cutts Compensator as well.   Also, the Cutts has external-to-the-barrel choke tube(s).

You can check the Wild Bunch forum for a discussion on this.

Sorry for the disappointment.  To get a definitive answer about WB rules you have to post questions on the WB forum.  WB rules have had a number of "edge of the rule set" surprises over the years, so it is good that they are now signing up to rectify some of the more vague rules. 

The member writing on the SASS Wire got correct information as soon as it was clarified here, he made the correct choice for WB by removing the Cutts Compensators off of a gun or three of his that he might use in WB.

I edit posts to correct a mistake or misunderstanding or where there is a simpler way to get something done than originally posted.  If you are concerned about the historical content of posts, I can line through parts of posts where I correct a post.  Or I can offer to make another separate entry on a thread, and copy and correct into a really long post.   

I run across a question about a Cutts Compensator about once every 10 years.   Sorry I didn't reread the rules closely enough to find the compensating ports not allowed, and translate that into also banning Cutts.   I was going on the long-standing basic philosophy that any configuration the factory made a gun in back in the period, was acceptable to use in the WB and Cowboy games.   I now see this  is sometimes supported in the rules, and sometimes disallowed.  I'll quit using that "historical factory configuration" as a decision criteria.

Good luck, GJ
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Jorge

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2018, 01:31:41 PM »
Thanks for your responses.

Let's say the "round count" for the rifle for a stage is listed as 10.  The instructions indicate using the rifle first with a 7 round nevada sweep on four targets.  use 1911 and shotgun at different positions, then shoot the rifle again, triple tapping one designated target.
Unless otherwise indicated by the stage description, could one load ten, shoot seven and safely stage the rifle with three rounds left in the mag for use later?
Could also apply to a shotgun loaded with six, using four initially, then leaving two rounds for the last two targets of the stage.

Flash

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2018, 02:04:44 PM »
Thanks for your responses.

Let's say the "round count" for the rifle for a stage is listed as 10.  The instructions indicate using the rifle first with a 7 round nevada sweep on four targets.  use 1911 and shotgun at different positions, then shoot the rifle again, triple tapping one designated target.
Unless otherwise indicated by the stage description, could one load ten, shoot seven and safely stage the rifle with three rounds left in the mag for use later?
Could also apply to a shotgun loaded with six, using four initially, then leaving two rounds for the last two targets of the stage.
RANGE OPERATIONS
•Rifles should be loaded with the number of rounds required by the initial target sequence at the loading table with the hammer either on the safety notch or fully down on an empty chamber. Any additional rounds needed must be loaded from the body or other specified staging position. Any rounds loaded beyond the required number that are fired are treated as “illegally acquired ammunition.”
•Rifles are always staged muzzle down range with the action closed, the chamber empty, and hammer either on the safety notch or fully down. If vertically staged, the muzzle must be tilted down range.
Safe conditions of rifle during a course of fire are as follows:
• Safe to leave the shooters hands.
– NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.
– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for
further use)
• Safe for movement rifle in hand only
– Hammer down on empty chamber or expended round, action closed.
 – Action open, round on carrier.
Rifles must be checked cleared at the unloading table. (Not following Loading and
Unloading procedures, SDQ)
Started CAS in 2012, WBAS in 2014 & have been to EOT twice & Winter Range once. Jedi Gunfighter #219 Have never shot any CA category but Gunfighter and any WB category but Traditional. In 2015 got top ten buckle Winter Range Senior Gunfighter & top ten at EOT Sen. Gunfighter & WB Traditional

Flash

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2018, 02:11:25 PM »
Thanks for your responses.

Let's say the "round count" for the rifle for a stage is listed as 10.  The instructions indicate using the rifle first with a 7 round nevada sweep on four targets.  use 1911 and shotgun at different positions, then shoot the rifle again, triple tapping one designated target.
Unless otherwise indicated by the stage description, could one load ten, shoot seven and safely stage the rifle with three rounds left in the mag for use later?
Could also apply to a shotgun loaded with six, using four initially, then leaving two rounds for the last two targets of the stage.
Shotgun
RANGE OPERATIONS
•Shotgun magazines may be loaded with the number of rounds required for the initial target sequence. Any additional rounds needed must be loaded from the body or other specified staging position. Any rounds loaded beyond the required number that are fired are treated as “illegally acquired ammunition.”
• Loaded shotguns must be staged with the muzzle downrange, the action closed, the chamber empty, and the hammer either on the safety notch or fully down. (Failure to comply, SDQ)
• Unloaded shotguns shall be staged with the action open.
• The shotgun magazine will be loaded after closing the action and lowering the
hammer on an empty chamber. (Failure to load, NO CALL; closing action after
loading, SDQ unless corrected before leaving shooter’s hands.)
• Safe conditions of shotgun during a course of fire are as follows:
• Safe to leave the shooters hands.
– NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.
– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for
further use)
• Safe for movement shotgun in hand only
– Action open, round on carrier.
– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed.
Must be checked cleared at the unloading table. (Not following Loading and
Unloading procedures, SDQ)
Started CAS in 2012, WBAS in 2014 & have been to EOT twice & Winter Range once. Jedi Gunfighter #219 Have never shot any CA category but Gunfighter and any WB category but Traditional. In 2015 got top ten buckle Winter Range Senior Gunfighter & top ten at EOT Sen. Gunfighter & WB Traditional

Tully Mars

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2018, 07:02:09 PM »
Thanks for your responses.

Let's say the "round count" for the rifle for a stage is listed as 10.  The instructions indicate using the rifle first with a 7 round nevada sweep on four targets.  use 1911 and shotgun at different positions, then shoot the rifle again, triple tapping one designated target.
Unless otherwise indicated by the stage description, could one load ten, shoot seven and safely stage the rifle with three rounds left in the mag for use later?
Could also apply to a shotgun loaded with six, using four initially, then leaving two rounds for the last two targets of the stage.

Jorge your description is correct. Unless the stage description states otherwise you could fire the 7 rounds and stage the rifle with the hammer down on an empty chamber for further use, same applies for the shotgun.

Tully
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:11:26 PM by Tully Mars »

Jorge

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2018, 08:19:44 PM »
Thanks for the responses.  It is good to get the rules correct in the mind before the season starts.

Grouchy Spike

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2018, 08:35:46 PM »
Hmm.  In the example stated by Jorge, I understand the rule in the SHB to be that only 7 rounds could be loaded, which is the initial target sequence.  10 rounds would be the complete target sequence.  There should be a penalty for not following the loading table procedures if 10 would be loaded at the LT, unless otherwise exempted by stage instructions.  What am I missing here?  Maybe some comprehension?

Good questions, thanks for hashing this out!
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J. Frank Norfleet

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Re: Long gun sequence
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2018, 08:41:19 PM »
Jorge,
That is a split sequence. The only time I have ever seen it was after this same discussion came up about four years ago. See link below and pay special attention to Happy Jacks responses. We tried it at our local club. It is a penalty trap since it is hard to ground a long gun without opening the action. It goes against all muscle memory and should not be used on any stage. SASS and the WB committee strongly discourages split sequences and I'm surprised they haven't removed it from the rules. If your match director writes stages like this don't let him write any more.
You might see a stage where a long gun is shot and staged open and empty to be retrieved later and shot with rounds loaded from the belt. The stage instructions will tell you how to load and shoot the stage.
JFN

https://www.sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/index.php?topic=1791.msg12893#msg12893
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 08:45:07 PM by J. Frank Norfleet »
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